Enough already!

[hgilmer3]

In my opinion, and I don't post a lot, it is that The Battle of the Bulge is perceived as "sexy" and the Aegean Battles are not.  I'm not a marketer, but I could just see one of those fancy marketing guys saying, "I can sell Battle of the Bulge.  It rolls off the tongue.  I can't sell Conquest of the Aegean. I can sell Germany against the Allies, the U.S., the British and I can sell the U.S. against Japan in the Pacific.  I can't sell the Germans against the Greeks."

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

Also, playing games to fit in? What kind of a warped high school movie society do you live in? No one cares about what you play. Outside of a handful of wargaming forums.

I'm 16.I have a game club at my school.One day I brought my laptop, and started play John Tiller's Campaign Series.Everyone would come over, but once they would see I was playing a wargame, I would get remarks like ''Go play some real games'' or ''Thats boring, dont you want to play Call of Duty?''.People do seem to care what you play.[8|]

[SlickWilhelm]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

Also, playing games to fit in? What kind of a warped high school movie society do you live in? No one cares about what you play. Outside of a handful of wargaming forums.

I'm 16.I have a game club at my school.One day I brought my laptop, and started play John Tiller's Campaign Series.Everyone would come over, but once they would see I was playing a wargame, I would get remarks like ''Go play some real games'' or ''Thats boring, dont you want to play Call of Duty?''.People do seem to care what you play.[8|]

Don't worry, V22. Stick to your guns and play the games that interest you. A very nice thing happens when you get out of high school. The whole peer pressure thing virtually disappears over night.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

CS:Shockforce is a good example about how a former intriguing series went down the drain, as the dev's decided to target a larger audience by introducing real-time. I did not bother with ToW 2 but according to forum activity sales numbers shouldn't be too high as well.

It's a good example of nothing of the sort, IMHO. I'm a huge fan of Shock Force and have had far more fun from it than CM1... a huge part of that appeal being that it isn't CM1. I'll take evolution rather than stagnation any day, and real-time CM is, frankly, superior to WEGO one as a wargame, not a click-fest. If you want to play it in the same old 'intriguing' way, you still can. As to sales numbers, those for CM:SF were actually much better than expected. ToW2 I don't know about, but that was always a thinking man's RTS rather than a wargame, as was it's predecessor.

ORIGINAL: Arsan

I would say its also a good example about how sometimes "another WW2" game is far better than an unique setting [;)]
USA Marines vs Syrians in a completely fictional war?? [&:] C'mon! [>:]
I woudl had gladly taken another CM Normandy game... like the next one they are making...
Good, Battlefront! Lesson learned![:'(][;)]

Totally disagree, I'm sick of "another WW2 game". Again, in my opinion, that was the last thing the series needed.. the same bloody thing with prettier graphics. Whoopee-doo. The reason for the fictional scenario is actually pretty obvious, they wanted to do contemporary warfare. But our guys were still getting killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, hence a game with either of those settings would have been in pretty poor taste, and would probably get an appropriate reaction from the press.

Sadly BF always intended to go back to WW2 after Shock Force (you could have done CM:Vietnam, guys) although, mercifully, at least we got two expansions (including the the upcoming Brit one) first.

[V22 Osprey]

CM:Vietnam would have been nice, but then they would have to find some way to add helicopters to the game, because whats a Vietnam game without Hueys in it?

Or BF could have made a World War 3 type game using CMx2 where you battle russian tanks on the north German Plain.

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

Also, playing games to fit in? What kind of a warped high school movie society do you live in? No one cares about what you play. Outside of a handful of wargaming forums.

I'm 16.I have a game club at my school.One day I brought my laptop, and started play John Tiller's Campaign Series.Everyone would come over, but once they would see I was playing a wargame, I would get remarks like ''Go play some real games'' or ''Thats boring, dont you want to play Call of Duty?''.People do seem to care what you play.[8|]

Don't worry, V22. Stick to your guns and play the games that interest you. A very nice thing happens when you get out of high school. The whole peer pressure thing virtually disappears over night.

Yep, definitlylooking forward to the end of High School.

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

It's a good example of nothing of the sort, IMHO. I'm a huge fan of Shock Force and have had far more fun from it than CM1... a huge part of that appeal being that it isn't CM1. I'll take evolution rather than stagnation any day, and real-time CM is, frankly, superior to WEGO one as a wargame, not a click-fest. If you want to play it in the same old 'intriguing' way, you still can. As to sales numbers, those for CM:SF were actually much better than expected. ToW2 I don't know about, but that was always a thinking man's RTS rather than a wargame, as was it's predecessor.

It's quite some time ago I looked into Shockforce, but as far as I remember you merely got 1 tank + 1 armored car ( with different layouts) model. In addition to introduction of real-time, the way to command units got changed, the fictional campaign had a generic feeling and asymmetric warfare wasn't implemented well, due to lack of civilians. I have no problems with modern conflicts or innovations but the one thing I dislike is, when a publisher disregards his fan-base in order to approach the mainstream. That's what Battlefront did with their recent titles, in contradiction to Matrix, HPS or Shrapnel, who still stick to their guns. Even Paradox took the other road again with HoI 3, in regard to the blooper of EU:Rome.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Hertston
Totally disagree, I'm sick of "another WW2 game". Again, in my opinion, that was the last thing the series needed.. the same bloody thing with prettier graphics. Whoopee-doo. The reason for the fictional scenario is actually pretty obvious, they wanted to do contemporary warfare. But our guys were still getting killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, hence a game with either of those settings would have been in pretty poor taste, and would probably get an appropriate reaction from the press.

Sadly BF always intended to go back to WW2 after Shock Force (you could have done CM:Vietnam, guys) although, mercifully, at least we got two expansions (including the the upcoming Brit one) first.

I agree - I was very disappointed they were going back to WWII. Man - CM:Six Day War? CM:Yom Kippur? CM:Vietnam? A little effort and thought.

I suspect they were going back due to the "outcry" of the original CM'ers. They just did not like the new route. Change is always very difficult to take people through.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

CM:Vietnam would have been nice, but then they would have to find some way to add helicopters to the game, because whats a Vietnam game without Hueys in it?

Or BF could have made a World War 3 type game using CMx2 where you battle russian tanks on the north German Plain.

My bold - about the same as a Pacific Air War game without the primary torpedo and dive bombers I'd guess [:'(]

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Lützow
...when a publisher disregards his fan-base in order to approach the mainstream. That's what Battlefront did with their recent titles, in contradiction to Matrix, HPS or Shrapnel, who still stick to their guns. Even Paradox took the other road again with HoI 3, in regard to the blooper of EU:Rome.

I respectfully disagree. Whilst there may have been some "mainstream" thought (and hell why not - they are a company after all), I think they tried damn hard to take on board existing CM lovers. They kept the same WEGO and even introduced the "blue bar" (I still have absolutely no clue what that furore was about) even though the game plays much, much better in real time. Imo the game is a fantastic addition. Not a click fest and not overwhelming and very little micro management.

Also, even if you still want to argue they disregarded their fan base - sometimes that just has to happen. People are resistent to change when they are in their comfort zone - it's left to other bodies to pull us forward.

I enjoy it and cannot wait for the British add on.

[Alexander Seil]

ORIGINAL:  jackx

Alexander Seil: Not sure how I ticked you off, but I can assure you that I didn't intend to.  I don't leave my ivory tower to go to online forums to pick a fight.

As with what I go by (in general, as anthropoid brought it up also): just personal experience. That's mostly other students, on and off campus, and random people at the bus stop/on the bus etc.

ORIGINAL:  V22 Osprey

ORIGINAL:  Alexander Seil

Also, playing games to fit in? What kind of a warped high school movie society do you live in? No one cares about what you play. Outside of a handful of wargaming forums.

I'm 16.I have a game club at my school.One day I brought my laptop, and started play John Tiller's Campaign Series.Everyone would come over, but once they would see I was playing a wargame, I would get remarks like ''Go play some real games'' or ''Thats boring, dont you want to play Call of Duty?''.People do seem to care what you play.[8|]

Yes, because people are only moronic and judgmental towards wargamers and MMORPG players. I totally don't sit in coffeeshops and pass judgment on tourists going by. Oh, wait, yes I do. Do the tourists care? Sadly not. Do like the tourists and stop playing the defenders in "Siege: The Ivory Tower." No one who actually has any consequence cares about what you play (and if they do, there's something very wrong with their heads - or they're Lieberman, which only reinforces my point). Someone who has any consequence = people over the age of 20.

As for most of PC game sales being in the under 18 category, or anything like that - PC gaming is an expensive habit due to practically mandatory hardware upgrades. If anything, it's easier for a high school student to play wargames on his mom's computer than it is to play Crysis.

ORIGINAL:  Lützow

ORIGINAL:  Hertston

It's a good example of nothing of the sort, IMHO.  I'm a huge fan of Shock Force and have had far more fun from it than CM1... a huge part of that appeal being that it isn't CM1.  I'll take evolution rather than stagnation any day, and real-time CM is, frankly, superior to WEGO one as a wargame, not a click-fest.  If you want to play it in the same old 'intriguing' way, you still can.  As to sales numbers, those for CM:SF were actually much better than expected.  ToW2 I don't know about, but that was always a thinking man's RTS rather than a wargame, as was it's predecessor.  

It's quite some time ago I looked into Shockforce, but as far as I remember you merely got 1 tank + 1 armored car ( with different layouts) model. In addition to introduction of real-time, the way to command units got changed, the fictional campaign had a generic feeling and asymmetric warfare wasn't implemented well, due to lack of civilians. I have no problems with modern conflicts or innovations but the one thing I dislike is, when a publisher disregards his fan-base in order to approach the mainstream. That's what Battlefront did with their recent titles, in contradiction to Matrix, HPS or Shrapnel, who still stick to their guns. Even Paradox took the other road again with HoI 3, in regard to the blooper of EU:Rome.

HoI3 was in some kind of development, at least as a design, for 2-3 years, and it was a given that it would receive a do-over with the new engine given that it's Paradox's best-selling series.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I suspect they were going back due to the "outcry" of the original CM'ers. They just did not like the new route. Change is always very difficult to take people through.

I don't think so; it was always the plan to go back to WW2 after Shock Force, and I think BF made that clear even before SF was released. The also made clear that they thought what they were doing was right and that those original CMers who didn't like it could go take a running jump. The numbers of those who wouldn't buy Shock Force anyway was not enough to worry about. I think they were pretty pissed at the reaction from some considering the considerable effort they had made to incorporate WEGO which it would have been very easy to drop completely.

Incidently, another reason I seem to recall them giving for doing a modern game first is that the core code incorporates just about anything needed for any time period before that. In other words it was a lot more efficient to do SF then a WW2 game than a WW2 game followed by SF.

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

ORIGINAL: Arsan

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
But come on, Crete and Malta? We want to see things that are actually exciting like Japan fighting the USSR in 1939 with some intense battles.Or maybe the Winter War.I haven't heard anyone ever want a game about Crete and Malta, that should've been a sign.Give us something different, but give us something different that we actually want to see.

YMMV, but at least i find the Crete and Greece campaigns much more interesting than the Japan vs USSR or Fins vs URSS campaigns. [;)]
There weren't any Fallschirmjagers in Nomohan! What a bore! [:'(]

I agree Nomonhan would be a cool campaign to fight and it's never been done in PC games as far as I know. It is a nice big battle using clunky old tanks and rifles for a good old fashioned meatgrinder.

[killroyishere]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I suspect they were going back due to the "outcry" of the original CM'ers. They just did not like the new route. Change is always very difficult to take people through.

I don't think so; it was always the plan to go back to WW2 after Shock Force, and I think BF made that clear even before SF was released. The also made clear that they thought what they were doing was right and that those original CMers who didn't like it could go take a running jump. The numbers of those who wouldn't buy Shock Force anyway was not enough to worry about. I think they were pretty pissed at the reaction from some considering the considerable effort they had made to incorporate WEGO which it would have been very easy to drop completely.

Incidently, another reason I seem to recall them giving for doing a modern game first is that the core code incorporates just about anything needed for any time period before that. In other words it was a lot more efficient to do SF then a WW2 game than a WW2 game followed by SF.

Herston is right on on this subject matter of CM:SF and Battlefront. Steve came right out into the forums and told members to bugger off he didn't give a damn what they thought.

Whether it sold or didn't I'm glad now they started with that crappy CM:SF so they could see all the bugs and flaws of the game. It certainly didn't go over well with the grog fanbase. It took them months to fix all that was broken and the game dropped in price really fast as you could get it for a saw buck all over the place. At least now there shouldn't be as many issues with the game engine for the WW2 series as there was with CM:SF out of the gate.
Most that snubbed it snubbed it because it wasn't WW2 to begin with. It was a stupid hypothetical wargame as well. I got mine for $4 looked at it once and haven't looked back.
Imho worst game Battlefront ever made.

[V22 Osprey]

Have you tried the latest patch?

CM:SF updated to the latest version is a whole new game compared to v1.0

Battlefront really redeemed themselves with CM:SF, enough so that people began to change their mind about the game and they came out with 2 expansions.

[Llyranor]

One's interest in a particular setting is what one makes of it. Lamenting about the lack of coverage in Japanese/Russian conflicts during WW2, and then dismissing Greece/Crete (another barely covered field in the wargaming industry) for 'just being' Greece/Crete sounds a bit counterproductive.

I can't say I have a special affinity to any specific setting, per say. I'll go after whatever gameplay system is good. My recent engine of choice has been Airborne Assault's.

I'm fairly new to the wargame genre, so I haven't been overly saturated with 'played-out' scenarios. But thanks to HTTR, I picked up a few books on Market-Garden, and they've been pretty exciting reads. It's now one of my favorite battles, particularly the Arnhem area. Despite knowing the outcome, I couldn't help but root for the paratroopers throughout the pages.

I had absolutely no clue what Greece's involvement was during WW2, and it's the last setting I'd think I'd have any interest in, but COTA got me to also pick up a few books on it. The delaying action and withdrawal of the British/Anzac troops all the way to the beaches of mainland Greece, the desperate defense of Crete against overwhelming odds. I'm just reading through one of books right now, and it's a pretty stirring tale.

My knowledge of the Bulge mainly stemmed from what the mainstream media will feed us, but I've also been reading through a book about it currently, and there's tons of fascinating stuff to be found. I've been rooting for the Ami underdogs as they're being surrounded by the enemy, before reinforcements arrive. I could see why people would enjoy this setting. I know I'll enjoy playing BFTB when that comes out.

Basically, I keep an open mind. A new wargame and a new setting, for me, is just a brand new opportunity to learn something know. All I need is a little nudge and good gameplay to support it. And thanks to Panther Games for introducing me to all these rich settings!

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both.  For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem.  If you look at the casualties in the Arnhem campaign, though significant for the allies because of the high value paratroopers involved and the expenditure of resources, on the Russian front such losses could be shrugged off as usual for a week or less of normal combat action.  But the Bulge was such a waste of fine armor left abandoned for lack of fuel and the inexperienced new recruits getting themselves killed by the unexpected defense in depth the Americans put up.

[Arsan]

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both.  For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem. 

Hi!

There is an excellent book about Market Garden strictly from the german perspective that may interest you

"It never snows in september" by Robert Kershaw
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Snows-Sep ... 118&sr=8-7

It's a great and detailed account of how the remains of the German army, completely defeated after Normandy managed to organize a defence that stopped the allied elite parachute and armoured divisions.
An excellent read and ideal companion book to fully enjoy Panther games "Highway to the Reich" game [&o]

Cheers

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

ORIGINAL: Arsan

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both.  For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem. 

Hi!

There is an excellent book about Market Garden strictly from the german perspective that may interest you

"It never snows in september" by Robert Kershaw
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Snows-Sep ... 118&sr=8-7

It's a great and detailed account of how the remains of the German army, completely defeated after Normandy managed to organize a defence that stopped the allied elite parachute and armoured divisions.
An excellent read and ideal companion book to fully enjoy Panther games "Highway to the Reich" game [&o]

Cheers

I've heard that snow book mentioned a lot so it must be a good one. The author was speaking in a documentary I saw on Arnhem; I think it was Battlefield Detectives.

[Llyranor]

Yeah, It Never Snows in September is a pretty good book. The paperback version I have could use some better maps, though.