Capturing Canton

[byron13]

So, in the final days before AE release, I thought I'd ask a question that has vexed me about WitP. I typically play Allied against Japanese AI in stock WitP. In my games, Japan takes Hong Hong and Canton. My Chinese strategy masses forces in the Canton area, cutting it and Hong Kong from supply from the land. In at least one game, the Allies have held on to PI allowing a submarine blockade of HK from the sea. Eventually, I get enough figter units to Wuchow to run LRCAP or sweep missions over Canton and HK to largely stop are re-supply.

No matter how many land forces (within reason) I mass in attacks against Canton, I cannot take the city. By the time I'm in a position to really assault it, the Japanese have built it up to a 9-level fort. I have surmised that my problem is that the Chinese, not having engineer assets, cannot reduce the fort level. So the situation remains a dull seige until the Allies send engineer-equipped units - either by sea or by land.

Is this anyone else's experience? Is there some way to hasten the fall of Canton that I'm not thinking of?

[m10bob]

When El Cid Again was working on RHS he stated he found the cities to have their own supply source and so troops there would not weaken as much so long as defended, and that indeed an attacker would find much trouble reducing the city without combat engineers.

I have found it useful to send U.S. combat engineers via the "teleport" feature by having them in Frisco and then changing their HQ to China.(They will show in Chung king 60 days later.)
In WITP this is not gamey as it represents the time it would take to send them by ship going around Africa, or thru the Med.
My uncle George was headed for Kowloon via Casablanca and the Suez in the 322nd Fighter Control Squadron.

[stuman]

I didn't know that the " teleport " feature still works.

[PeteG662]

One thing that has worked for me in the past with the same type situation is use of level bombers from Wuchow on the city, industry and airfileds/port which helps to keep the fort levels down and drains supplies. Alternate shock attacks, deliberate attacks and bombardments continuously and the Japanese can be beaten in Canton and other cities. I have taken Canton and many of the other cities in China through persistence against the Japanese AI.

[Mynok]

Canton is an urban hex. Extremely difficult to take by anyone, let alone the awful Chinese hordes.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: stuman

I didn't know that the " teleport " feature still works.

Yes, in vanilla WITP..Land units in Frisco and air units in Canada(Vancouver IIRC)..

[byron13]

I had several Heavy Bombardment Groups and several fighter/fighter-bomber groups bombing for probably a year - mostly on port attack (to destroy supply) and troops. I was killing bunches. My guess is that it's already up to 9 fort by the time you can get bombers and enough aviation support points to the area to hinder them. Odd that between the two hexes of Canton and HK that they could make supply since I would have thought (i) they needed oil and (ii) they wouldn't have any. I think I'd worn them down to the point where the defense was pretty brittle. As I recall, once I brought some engineers in, the city fell within just a couple of days. Thanks for the input. We'll see if any of it is relevant after Monday/Tuesday.

I seem to be the only person that didn't upgrade to CHS or one of the other mods.

[moonraker65]

Would it not be better to let Canton & Hong Kong "whither on the vine" so to speak. My current game is Nikmod Scenario 145 - 1st May '42 start on Andrew's map for CHS and instead of trying to take back most of the Chinese cities I've cut the Japanese off from Indo China by taking Hanoi, Haiphong and Pakhoi thus denying them a vital supply route and 2 ports. By keeping strong forces in Hanoi I've been able to stop them retaking it as well.

[byron13]

That is certainly a valid strategy. It's just that Canton and HK are sitting right there, are relatively isolated, and so close to a bunch of Chinese units that it's hard to resist. In this particular game (against the AI) I also held on to the PI so there was the additional reason to take HK and control from the PI and HK the supply routes that the Japanese needed to use between Japan and NEI. Plus, I would think (without any real knowledge) that the Chinese armies would not be likely to go venturing into Indo-China when it's own cities are under Japanese control. Might make sense in the big picture, but kinda hard to sell to the population - and the troops.

[moonraker65]

Ah but ... In this particular scenario there are several Chinese Infantry Corps and a couple of Divisions in and around Kunming that already have their objectives set to Hanoi so i just prompted them to make the move and it worked fine.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: moonraker

Would it not be better to let Canton & Hong Kong "whither on the vine" so to speak. My current game is Nikmod Scenario 145 - 1st May '42 start on Andrew's map for CHS and instead of trying to take back most of the Chinese cities I've cut the Japanese off from Indo China by taking Hanoi, Haiphong and Pakhoi thus denying them a vital supply route and 2 ports. By keeping strong forces in Hanoi I've been able to stop them retaking it as well.

They will not whither on the vine. Urban hexes have their own supply and whomever holds them gets PP's..

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: stuman

I didn't know that the " teleport " feature still works.

Yes, in vanilla WITP..Land units in Frisco and air units in Canada(Vancouver IIRC)..

Use this with caution... it can bite you in the butt... i've had instances where i've tried this, and the unit is withdrawn, only to return 60 days later at the same place it was withdrawn from... then you still have to transport it halfway around the planet. [:(]

When it works, it's nice, though. [8D]

[moonraker65]

True. But they will have to move anything from Siam/Indo China/Thailand by sea to the rest of China if they wish to do so making them vulnerable to my Subs [:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: moonraker

True. But they will have to move anything from Siam/Indo China/Thailand by sea to the rest of China if they wish to do so making them vulnerable to my Subs [:D]

Only if the "teleport" misfires... otherwise troops show up in Chungking automatically.