6 pdr anti-tank gun

Command Ops: Battles From The Bulge takes the highly acclaimed Airborne Assault engine back to the West Front for the crucial engagements during the Ardennes Offensive. Test your command skills in the fiery crucible of Airborne Assault’s “pausable continuous time” uber-realistic game engine. It's up to you to develop the strategy, issue the orders, set the pace, and try to win the laurels of victory in the cold, shadowy Ardennes.
Command Ops: Highway to the Reich brings us to the setting of one of the most epic and controversial battles of World War II: Operation Market-Garden, covering every major engagement along Hell’s Highway, from the surprise capture of Joe’s Bridge by the Irish Guards a week before the offensive to the final battles on “The Island” south of Arnhem.

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GoodGuy
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RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by GoodGuy »

That's what a pillbox looks like after being hit by a 75mm tank destroyer. Most likely HE. There are 2 round marks above the embrasure, which look like marks of AP rounds (smaller calibre?).

Since the bunker's structure is still intact, you can imagine that such a blast just bought time for bypassing US infantry (trying to get to the sides or the back, as the Germans could still shoot through the embrasure after they had recovered, unless these loopholes would have been blocked with rubble and debris - upon impact), as the Germans just had to replace wounded personnel and damaged MGs/Panzerfausts.

The few self-propelled 155mm howitzers, brought to the Siegfried Line later on, created bigger damage, most likely. Still, afaik, they didn't have bunker-buster ammunition (anti-concrete rounds), just HE.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/pillboxwarfare/

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"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

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"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
GoodGuy
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 5:36 pm
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RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by GoodGuy »

In fact there were none allocated as divisional assets at all. Ah well, perhaps it's all just a question of semantics.
Guess so. I had the fact in mind that towed TD battalions (M5, maybe some M1) used to be attached to a division and that Infantry Coys weren't issued M1 (as it sounded like you had said that). I thought that any organic AT elements served on a Div. level as well, like in the Airborne Divisions (like in the Anti-Aircraft unit -> aka "heavy weapons" unit and in the Artillery unit, for example). Well, if you're right, then I can see why they used to attach towed TD Bns, as the handful of Rgt/Bn M1s you mentioned couldn't accomplish much.
You just can't please everyone.[:)]
Yeah that goes without saying. Well, let's say I'd decide to buy BFTB, then I'd like to get on the "Requesting HE"-list.

FIRST ! [:D][;)]
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
RayWolfe
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Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: Kent in the UK

RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by RayWolfe »

For someone who toots about all the time about this game, isn't it rather strange that you say:
"Well, let's say I'd decide to buy BFTB"
Surely your not a shill? <Difficult to say that whilst sober!>

No, I know you're going to get it as quickly as the rest of us. [;)]
GoodGuy
Posts: 1506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany

RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by GoodGuy »

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

Surely your not a shill? <Difficult to say that whilst sober!>

K, that's where my english language skills desert me entirely. While I do understand the word shill, I don't get the saying in that context (especially with the "sober" comment). Care to explain? [:)]

Anway...
I was just joking, I'm not gonna get it. I outlined some of the reasons in detail in other threads, no need to recite them.


For someone who toots about all the time about this game, isn't it rather strange that you say: ...[]
Even though I was joking, I don't think that it's "strange" or a contradiction to say good things about a superior product and point out things at the same time, or to say that I'll skip.
"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
RayWolfe
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: Kent in the UK

RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by RayWolfe »

Sorry, I knew you were only jocking about getting this game and I know that any adverse comments you may make are only to assist with the further development of this, the greatest game system.
As for "Surely and shill" in the same short sentence, for an English speaker, the combination can sound as if the speaker is drunk! As I often am, drunk that is, this is not unusual ........ [;)]
TMO
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RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by TMO »

Dave

From

http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/h_vernon_part7,

describing the river Seine crossing (25th to 28th August 1944):
Meanwhile the Section of Anti-Tank Guns in support had gone into action on the road, being unable to deploy off it; the leading gun, commanded by Sergt. Jack Guest, at the bend in the road (map reference 454770) and the second one, commanded by Lance Sergt. Bill Bratt about 100 yards further back (at map reference 454768). The second Platoon had no sooner reported their inability to engage the tank when it began to move down the road and to nose round the bend at about 300 yards ahead on the left (map reference 457773). The leading 6-pounder anti-tank gun, with only the off-side of the hull and the turret of the tank visible, immediately engaged with "Sabot" ammunition (a projectile specifically designed for anti-tank use). The first shell hit and penetrated the mantlet surrounding the German's 88mm gun. In a few seconds the 6-pounder was reloaded and fired again: another hit, then again, another hit, both times in the hull. The Tiger Tank was beaten. The surviving crew quickly started to bale out of the stricken hulk. The 6-pounder continued to fire, with two rounds of high-explosive shells. There was an explosion and the tank burst into flames. The crew were all killed; one lay draped half in, half out of the turret. The enemy supporting escort of infantry then hurriedly withdrew.

The following quotes are from:

Pemberton, Brig. A. L., The Second World War 1939-1945. Army. The Development of Artillery Tactics and Equipment (London: The War Office, 1950).

Describing action in Italy - no mention of HE or AP ammunition, or indeed, 6 pdr or 17 pdr a/tk guns (p192):
The Germans were still fighting hard and at Ortona there was some extremely tough street fighting, in which little use could be made of the large quantities of artillery available. Hence tanks and anti-tank guns were employed in direct fire tasks while the field artillery harassed the coastal road in rear (sic) of the town and the heavy artillery was turned on the destruction of strong points.

Again in Italy on "Concrete Busting" - mentions AP; no mention of 6 pdr or HE (p199):
In the tank or anti-tank gun, with its solid shot, there was to hand a means of destroying the houses before the attack began. The 17-pr. had already been used successfully against Italian pill-boxes in the Messina crossing and from now on the use of the anti-tank gun as a " concrete buster" became prevalent.

After the breakout from Normandy - no mention of 6 pdr, 17 pdr, AP or HE (p251):
After the breakout from Normandy, the overwhelming superiority of the allied air and armoured forces left little for the A.A. and anti-tank gunners to do. Both therefore sought, and found, employment in a variety of other tasks. By December, 1944, the anti-tank gun was being regularly used for the engagement of pin-point targets such as pill-boxes, machine-gun posts, snipers in houses and O.Ps., and of soft-skinned vehicles or troops behind light cover; for nuisance value harassing fire; and for the cutting of wire obstacles.

On "Pepper Pot" groups during the Operation Veritable (p264):
During the preliminary artillery bombardment, divisional L.A.A. and anti-tank units were associated with the machine-gun battalion in what were known as "pepper pot" groups, which were used intermittently to saturate with fire the enemy defences on the immediate front and flanks of each divisional attack.

During the crossing of the Rhine (p269):
The 15th (S) Division used a very elaborate programme of timed concentrations, followed in the usual manner, by concentrations on call; the whole occupying a total of 706 guns, one rocket battery, and divisional "pepper pots" as in " Operation Veritable".

More on "Bunker Busting" - clearing bunkers in the Far East using the 75 mm gun of Lee tanks (p290):
First super-quick H.E. was used to clear the undergrowth; then AP shot was used to loosen earth about two to three feet below the timbered fire rest; and finally, delay action H.E. shell were fired through the now unprotected structure and burst inside the bunker.

6 pdr (p291):
From here it was but a short step to the use of the 6-pr. anti-tank gun, which became fairly common during the latter satges of the war in Burma. The chief problem was of course to get the gun within effective range - 75 to 300 yards - of the target. In one A.A./anti-tank regiment this was done by digging a pit in the selected position under cover of darkness, and bringing in the gun either dismantled or manhandled on its wheels or on a toboggan. As soon as it was possible for the layer to see the slit of the bunker through his telescope, he opened fire with A.P. shot and when the slit had sufficiently enlarged, changed to H.E. and fired another 10 to 50 rounds through the hole. In some cases, when the slit was big, it was not necessary to fire A.P. at all.

This last quote is the most striking - suggesting that by this time the majority of 6 pdr rounds fired in the Far East were HE (there being few Japanese tanks to target).

A last quote on "Bunker Busting" during 1944 (p254):
... aginst a long-prepared position like the Siegfried Line, there would be the problem of " concrete busting". Air bombing was generally ineffectve in this role, because a near miss, even with a heavy bomb, had little or no effect. Flame throwers were effective against the apertures of concrete pill-boxes, but had a very limited range. Hence there was still a definite need for artillery assistance.

The procedure recommended was descriptively entitled the "pick and shovel method". A 17-pr., the pick; and the 5.5-in, medium gun, firing H.E., was the shovel that dispersed the rubble.

Comments?

Regards

Tim












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Arjuna
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RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by Arjuna »

You guys never give up, do you?[:D]
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
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RE: 6 pdr anti-tank gun

Post by Arjuna »

BTW see post #31 above. Note we have added some HE to the 6 pdr units.
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