Guadalcanal - Allies vs. AI Japs

[Canoerebel]

I'm playing this scenario to expand my feel for the game following yesterday's Coral Sea matches.

This scenario begins on August 6, 1942 with the Watchtower troops loaded on amphibious TFs at Luganville, with 450 AV 100% prepped for Lunga and 200 AV 100% prepped for Tulagi. Three US CVs are in close proximity to each other up near the Santa Cruz Islands.

1) I order the amphbious TFs to make their way north, while the CVs move WSW to rendezvous. Before they do so, some Bettys from Rabaul make a long distance strike at the amphibious ships, fortunately not hitting anything.

2) I continue to have problems coordinating TFs - getting them to follow properly and getting TFs to move as fast as I "think" they should go. This is not a problem with the game. It's a problem with me - I need to read the instructions to find out more about how follow commands, mid-ocean refueling, and other things might impact TF movement and following.

3) As the scattered TFs near Lunga from the SE, a sizeable Jap raid aims for the Lunga amphibious TF; fortunately, the carriers are fairly close and send up a CAP of 28 F4Fs (this is cool, because I didn't set the CAP for LRCAP - instead, the fighters were ordered in by the computer). A bunch of Bettys are splashed, but two manage to put TTs into APs. The American carriers send out strike forces that destroy some minor Jap merchant shipping in the area.

4) I send the two amphibious TFs to their targets while the American carriers take post south of Guadalcanal.

5) Both landings go without a hitch, begnning on the 10th. No appearance by Jap combat ships or carriers. Supplies are pretty low. I order the Tulagi group to shock attack on the 11th. They take the base without difficulty. The Marines at Lunga try their own shock attack on the 12th. Though low on supplies and facing two small infantry units the Japs probably brought in by fast transport, the attack succeeds at 19:1.

6) On the 12th, the American CVs moved WNW and took station west of Guadalcanal, sighting two Jap TFs with combat ships - one just north of the Solomons and one just south. Both are at relatively long range, but the carriers sortie strikes vs. both. The northern strikes score 4 hits on CA Chokai. The southern strike puts 2 TT in CL Katori, sinking her (and some smaller ships to boot).

7) Interesting to note that while Katori is worth 24 points, AO Sabine is worth 30. She was sunk on the first or second day by a Jap sub near Noumea.

8) Over at New Guinea, the Allies are raiding Lae's airfield. A Jap ground force in the Owen Stanley mountains keeps attacking the Aussie 30th Brigage at bad odds, suffering far heavier casualties, but seems to be making progress in beating down the Aussies.

9) With Lunga and Tulagi in Allied hands, the American CVs and combat ships will retire to Luganville (the Jack Fletcher plan, don't ya know?). For the next few weeks, I'll concentrate on defense in this region. I'll also try to reinforce Port Moresby and/or Milne Bay, though Politcal Points will prevent me from flooding New Guinea.

More later, as developments warrant.

[AttuWatcher]

I'm at August 14th and things are looking quite similar. I haven't had a major carrier battle but after the successful invasions I had them withdraw.
I was also impressed by the LRCAP though I had manually set a small portion of it.

[Canoerebel]

I continued to play the game through August 23. A big CV clash occurred from the 20th to the 22nd as follows:

1. American CVs in two TFs (Saratoga in one, Wasp/Enterprise the other) escort a small supply TF from Noumea to Lunga.

2. Jap carriers are north of the Solomons, but in easy striking range.

3. On the 20th, American strike aircraft severly damage CVL Ryujo: 54 F4F, 25 AVG, 29 SBD vs. 38 Zeros; only 6 F4F and 1 Zero are downed. Ryujo takes 3 B, 2 TT; CA Atago takes 1 B.

4. The Allied CVs remain in place south of Lunga, the Jap fleet carriers close. On the 21st and 22nd, there are massed waves of attacks by both sides, with CV Wasp sinking after taking 4 B and 1 TT; CV enterprise has to limp to Tulagi after taking 4 B and 2 TT. Most of the damage was done in the inital strike by the Japs, which featured 50 Zeros, 18 Kates, and 24 Vals vs. 17 F4F. The Allies retaliate with 54 F4F, 29 SBD, and 25 AVG vs. 38 Zeros (6 F4F downed vs. 1 Zero; no bombers downed). Zuikaku takes 4 B, Shokaku takes 1 B, and CA Tone takes 2 B. Another big strike that afternoon put another bomb in Zuikaku.

5. As a result of the damage to Wasp and Enterprise, American carrier planes divert to Lunga, which doesn't have any base force support. However, the next day these planes sortie and do additional damage, with assistance from Saratoga's planes, to the Jap carriers and to several CAs.

6. After the battle was over, I checked the Japanese damage and confirmed that Shokaku, Zuikaku, and Ryuho went down. Enterprise may go down too.

7. This was an American tactical victory, though both sides were bloodied. The results seemed reasonable. From a strategic standpoint, it's a major American victory as it makes the American position at Lunga much more secure.

8. The only oddity to me was that in the first big strikes by both American and Jap carrier strike aircraft, only a handful of fighters went down and not a single bomber went down to either CAP or flak (though plenty were damaged).

9. I've decided to end this game and to move on to the Grand Campaign to check things out there.

[vettim89]

8. The only oddity to me was that in the first big strikes by both American and Jap carrier strike aircraft, only a handful of fighters went down and not a single bomber went down to either CAP or flak (though plenty were damaged).

.......

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

8. The only oddity to me was that in the first big strikes by both American and Jap carrier strike aircraft, only a handful of fighters went down and not a single bomber went down to either CAP or flak (though plenty were damaged).

.......

[:D]

Looks like CAP didn't do anything this time either...lol

[AttuWatcher]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

8. The only oddity to me was that in the first big strikes by both American and Jap carrier strike aircraft, only a handful of fighters went down and not a single bomber went down to either CAP or flak (though plenty were damaged).

.......

The question remains; is this meant to show the inneffectiveness of early war carrier CAP (land-based CAP seems to work just fine in my experiance so far) which will presumably be much more effective later in the war or things actually being out of wack and needing some tweaks?

[Canoerebel]

I'm beginning to lean a bit toward something being out of wack - two big raids, one Allied and one Japanese, goes against two stout carrier TFs and not a single bomber or torpedo plane is downed by flak (or CAP, though I admit that might be possible)? With so many hits scored against Enterprise, Wasp, Shokaku, Zuikaku, and Ryujo, you'd think ack-ack would score some kills.

I say I'm "beginning" to lean toward things being out of wack, but that doesn't mean I'm convinced yet. It's something I'll continue to monitor. Additional results may reinforce my suspicions or disprove them.

[AttuWatcher]

Forgot about the ack-ack. Not one, but two layers of carrier defence that are appearing seemingly useless thus far...in the early war atleast.

[HMS Resolution]

Good news, everyone! The Kido Butai's CAP of 65 Zekes had no problem splashing the entire raid from Pearl Harbor in a test game.

[Miller]

I dont want to "Knock" the game just yet, it looks excellent and some of the new features are great........but I am not happy with the air model, certainly when it comes to CV battles. CAP is now far too weak, just about every bomber gets through unless it is unescorted.

I did I test head to head between the KB and the Lex/Ent, meeting a couple of days after the PH raid. Despite over 80 Zeros on CAP, 90% of the US SBDs got through and sank 2 CVs with another badly damaged. As I expected the IJN strike got through without taking any losses and sank both Lex/Ent.

Needs to be looked at in my opinion......

[Erik Rutins]

We're listening, but remember that the more data we get the better. The game can be extremely variable and we don't want to change anything before there's a solid amount of data and experience that exceeds what we know from the design and have seen in pre-release testing. A single test of any kind is fairly meaningless as virtually any outcome can happen in WITP AE, we need to see more results to get a real sense.

Regards,

- Erik

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We're listening, but remember that the more data we get the better. The game can be extremely variable and we don't want to change anything before there's a solid amount of data and experience that exceeds what we know from the design and have seen in pre-release testing. A single test of any kind is fairly meaningless as virtually any outcome can happen in WITP AE, we need to see more results to get a real sense.

Regards,

- Erik

Man I hate being such a malcontent. Thanks Erik for at least listening. That said this really seems to be a pattern. Multiple players now in multiple scenarios keep getting the same result. The RL battles around GC saw very few planes actually make it to the point where they could launch. By that time the CAP and the AAA had either destroyed most or at least damaged them enough to jettison their munitions. In this example with augmented AAA and bigger fighter groups, we should be seeing at least 50% attrition before the planes start attack. In truth it should be more like 75% but at this point I'd be happy for 50%

[Q-Ball]

I am playing the same scenario, and getting different results. I am Japan, my CVs are unscathed, but I'm putting Jeans on the CVs because I have lost so many planes to CAP and Flak. I've sunk hardly anything via Air, despite having tons of chances. I suspect this all evens out in the long run. But so far, our CV engagements are alot of shot down aircraft, not alot of hits.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Miller

I dont want to "Knock" the game just yet, it looks excellent and some of the new features are great........but I am not happy with the air model, certainly when it comes to CV battles. CAP is now far too weak, just about every bomber gets through unless it is unescorted.

I did I test head to head between the KB and the Lex/Ent, meeting a couple of days after the PH raid. Despite over 80 Zeros on CAP, 90% of the US SBDs got through and sank 2 CVs with another badly damaged. As I expected the IJN strike got through without taking any losses and sank both Lex/Ent.

Needs to be looked at in my opinion......

Hmmmm....I'm trying to think of an actual CV battle where a strong IJN CAP failed to intercept and annihilate an SBD force which subsequently sank multiple CVs...nope can't think of any. [;)]

Not trying to debate, just a little Dev humor. I am also monitoring the situation. Would love to see more hard data.

[Fishbed]

80 zeros on CAP at the same moment over KB, that would be a Nagumo wet dream ^^

[IKL]

I'm playing the same scenario as Allies and had the same carrier battle at roughly the same time, but opposite results. No carriers hit, but both sides lost so much air they were out of action for weeks rebuilding air wings. Looking at your strike numbers, I would say the only difference was that I kept more fighters on CAP and sent weaker strike escorts. AI did the same. Some of the strikes were uncoordinated and massacred as a result. Flak did a lot of damage but not many destroyed. Damaged aircraft crashing on landing made a difference too. Enterprise left the scene with 21 planes operational. 
I actually thought it was a pretty realistic experience, and a massive improvement.
My only issue was that SBDs reported attacking the Kaga............3 months after Midway. FOW maybe, but don't those pilots read the papers? [;)]

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: IKL

I'm playing the same scenario as Allies and had the same carrier battle at roughly the same time, but opposite results. No carriers hit, but both sides lost so much air they were out of action for weeks rebuilding air wings. Looking at your strike numbers, I would say the only difference was that I kept more fighters on CAP and sent weaker strike escorts. AI did the same. Some of the strikes were uncoordinated and massacred as a result. Flak did a lot of damage but not many destroyed. Damaged aircraft crashing on landing made a difference too. Enterprise left the scene with 21 planes operational. 
I actually thought it was a pretty realistic experience, and a massive improvement.
My only issue was that SBDs reported attacking the Kaga............3 months after Midway. FOW maybe, but don't those pilots read the papers? [;)]

Now that was the one variable I was considering: what was the percentage on CAP and what altitudes. Perhaps we should start a thread just posting combat results to accumulate some data

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: IKL

I'm playing the same scenario as Allies and had the same carrier battle at roughly the same time, but opposite results. No carriers hit, but both sides lost so much air they were out of action for weeks rebuilding air wings. Looking at your strike numbers, I would say the only difference was that I kept more fighters on CAP and sent weaker strike escorts. AI did the same. Some of the strikes were uncoordinated and massacred as a result. Flak did a lot of damage but not many destroyed. Damaged aircraft crashing on landing made a difference too. Enterprise left the scene with 21 planes operational. 
I actually thought it was a pretty realistic experience, and a massive improvement.
My only issue was that SBDs reported attacking the Kaga............3 months after Midway. FOW maybe, but don't those pilots read the papers? [;)]

Now that was the one variable I was considering: what was the percentage on CAP and what altitudes. Perhaps we should start a thread just posting combat results to accumulate some data

Started a CAP Thread in the war room. We need as many people to participate as possible to find out if this is a true problem or just a matter of luck and/or superior tactics by some players

[Tazo]

I played a Guadalcanal with the Allies, now it is late september. The experience is great,
full of variety, reactions and surprise, and indeed very realistic in most aspects - air,
naval, tokyo express, night affairs, constant and dangerous supplying of the isle by both
sides, maneuvers at sea, well defined front line, sudden heavy air strikes from nowhere.
Detailed report in a separate thread later since operations are still going more and more
intensively in late september, with realistic loses.

A few temporary comments here :

1) a major improvement is the dynamic of maintenance / repair. Impossible to have full air
wings in action and less than one half after the first strike, as in real life ! So the
effectiveness of the wings decreases a little bit more rapidely than the number of sorties
allowed. We now have to think more deeply about why and where to engage a carrier. I scored
some CL, CA, DD and transports lacking of air cover but for this I had to deplete two
separate CV TF air wings (and wait for the jap CV leaving the aera after their own depletion
of bomber planes).

2) CAP also is dynamical and can be bloody, too late, here but fooled by the escort, overhelmed
then renforced, or regularily effective. I've seen all this with the same level of CAP. Depends
a few on weather, altitudes, fatigue, undamaged planes... but mainly on the ratio escort/cap and
their relative maneuver then at last on the number of bombers compared to the CAP surviving the
escort : cats escort has to be twice the zero CAP to have a chance of avoiding the bombers of
being swept out, the converse is not true, zero escorts make the cat crazy and they can hardly
reach the vals. I agree that on the average the fighters take few kills themselves but they
leave the fight with damages, and when the currently fighting CAP is empty after engaging the
escort the bombers can even not be attacked at all (so escort to neutralize first, bombers not
attacked simultaneously, but certainly will if CAP has more planes than escort). Few kills yes,
but the number of damaged planes of the CV is increasing very rapidely ! Sounds very realistic.

3) Even with a lot of diving bombers the hit probabilities are low for mid or unexperienced pilots,
and the flak usually damage most of them when they were lucky to escape the CAP or were efficiently
escorted. I had to wait for several strikes (uncoordinated strikes back after well coordinated
jap massive attacks were ineffective, due to my defensive choice of not merging the TF) and three
battles before scoring a first bomb hit on a big CV, and even longer to have a torpedo sinking
a CVL (after the avenger in question was the only one passing through the CAP+AA !). The torpedo
bombers are more dangerous but very limited in number, often not coordinated with diving bombers
thus repulsed and damaged, then also typically diverted on CA and BB (protecting the CV side).

4) On several occasions I've seen 2 torp bombers (Kate or avenger) with 3-6 escort attacking alone
and escaping CAP of 8-15 (small attacks less spotted ?) and scoring hits. On the opposite I've
seen major strikes surviving to the CAP but scoring very few hits (24 val and 13 kate, or 52 val
and 26 kate, or 36 dauntless and 12 avenger ...) and I've never seen a big CV sunk in one strike.
Also the wasp with new unexperieced wings spent two days trying to score on a convoy and all these
pilots had a lot of difficulty under only AA fire to hit maru's... but progressively succeeded,
it was really fun because this happened historicaly as a prelude of the campaign ! So everything
was almost not predictable but sounded really true.

5) The only strange point was the night fightings when too many TF where around Guadalcanal, so
the CV forces met in night surface combat (some hits on the two jap CV that maybe believed that
their day victory on the enterprise and saratoga was justifying taking such a stupid risk and
closing lunga to shot at my convoy...). But later my fleet of 4 CA, 1 CAA, 1 CL, 5DD met 2 BB,
2CL, 3DD and the animated battle was realistic : closing up then separating but a deluge of fire
and 1BB very exposed (28hits, Hiei not sunk !) and a CL+2DD sunk versus my CAA (sunk) and minor
hits on all CA. No bloody result with many sunk ships. My bombrdement TF also had a few night
encounters, without such real battle.

6) The reports are not all, the desciption of battles during the animation explain the whole thing !
And looks so realistic that I believe them. Certainly adjustments will have to be made but no clear
idea right now and very happy with my current experience. The game is not easy at all with Andy's
work on AI, and the new system make our TF's have a lot of weaknesses !

In conclusion :

A - CAP is CERTAINLY INEFFECTIVE WHEN FACING A LARGER ESCORT (or planes outmaneuvering
them and in equal number) and the SIZE of the actual fighting CAP depends on the dynamic of the
process, some guys can misss the appointment due to weather, altitude, fatigue, late arrival and
so on... and also due to the number of DAMAGED planes not counting is the CAP percentage ! Don't
believe that a cat CAP is often at 60% of 24, thus 15, but with 3 in maintenance and 8 damaged by
the previous CAP fightings you are left with a 7-8 ! And tired since we have to use high % CAP's during
the hot days of long operations (all the time when on the front line, I was surprised by two sudden
returns of the jap CV in september... whithout a sufficient CAP I could have had a CV sunk instead
of two slightly damaged). So when a CAP of 50 is announced I suspect that indeed it is far less,
or the surviving attackers are liars !

B - The main interesting NEW FEATURE is how fast the naval bomber wings are WEAKENED through
DAMAGED planes, and need a few days of repair or have to operate with very few planes, say less
than 40% most of time. But hey, it seems it was the case, no ? It's no more possible to operate three
weeks with several battles and secondary strikes on convoys... Sometimes in WitP it was the case,
I was not very happy with these Attila lurking TF. Now in AE it is a real pleasure that we have to really
think of consequences of engaging a TF, even without CAP the AA is terrible in damaging air wings.
I managed to take the head in terms of losses but now I lack of undamaged naval bombers...
Not enough Dauntless/Avenger replacement pool !

I need to finish the scenario. The first carrier battles never settle the faith of a game, and mine were
extremely realistic, then I had to react with respect to the fact that the Jap still have all their big
CV, and mine took some repair alternatively but are still here. The winner is the one that hold the
objectives the last day, not the one that hit a CV on the first day ! And at Guadalcanal it is long to
weaken the Jap up to the point that he can no more oppose something dangerous close to lunga and
tulagi... even his subs are annoying my CV TF's moreover full of damaged bombers (but the built
base at lunga is opperating well). I took the head of sunk ships late in august but formally lost the
two major carrier battles (august then september) but preserved my 4 CV and sacrificed 1BB, 2CA
only. I managed to have an active CV around lunga permanently to cut the logisitic and protect mine,
supporting two surface TF's under air cover of lunga and containing all the jap periodical come backs.
Infantery is now ready to assault the reinforced jap in the second hex.

An experiment : I'm sending the Wasp again, to replace the damaged Hornet, this time with 45 cats
on board since my Dauntless were not able to have replacement... Let see if a big CAP works best !!!

[SireChaos]

I´ve played the Guadalcanal campaign a bit, too, and got a big carrier battle around the 20th. Three US TFs, each with 1 CV, 2 CA, 1 CL/CLAA, 8 DD, against 2 Japanese TFs, one with Shokaku+Zuikaku, the other with Ryujo.

The initial Japanese strike sank Enterprise with 4 torpedos and damaged a cruiser. Enterprise´s planes survived as they were on their own strike, and relocated to Lunga.
The initial return strike crippled Shokaku. Over the PM phase and the next day, three more strikes crippled Zuikaku as well, and I´m fairly confident by now that they will be out of it for months, even if they do not sink.

CAP so far usually took around 10% of a strike if numbers were reasonably similar, plus damaging a lot of planes. Overall I think my carriers wings took 50% fighter losses and 15% bomber losses; Japanese losses, had they not lost their carriers out of range from any airfield to divert to, would probably have been around 20% of fighters and 30% of bombers (I think Ryujo lost about that much; Sho and Zui lost pretty much 100% each, except perhaps for a few to escape to Ryujo). After two days, my two surviving carriers had, between them, about 10 intact and 30 damaged F4F, 25 intact and 40 damaged SBD, and 10 intact and 15 damaged TBF.