Include Axis powers ?

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

I know that the German & Italian forces never really played any part in the Pacific campaign, apart from some German U boats, but the Allies have many countrys fighting for them,while little old Japan is all on her lonesome.[:(]

I feel that the time has come to even the balance a little,by adding German & Italian forces,air,land & sea to assist Japan,and united the Axis powers hypothetically off course.Well that is what I'm going to try and do in a Complete campaign scenario.[8D]

Since my preference is for all things naval,I will be adding both German & Italian fleets to sail under the Japanese flag.[;)]

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, that's the way it was. We did talk about adding the Germans (for "chrome") but decided that since it was more difficult than it seems at first glance, there were better things to do with our programmers' time.

[Historiker]

TO even it up, you may then also transfer the Russian, French and Vichy-French units [;)]

Finally some more battleships! [&o]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Well I like all the German ships better than anything else so, Bismarck,Tirpitz Scharnhorst,Gneisenau,Admiral Graf Spee,Admiral Scheer & Lutzow along with all Heavy + Light cruisers, destroyers + U boats are being imported in to a new scenario of mine right now,will take some time to do but I want them included,so since I have the editor at my disposal that is exactly what I'm doing.[:D]

Well since there are no plans to do a Atlantic version of witp,I will transfer all I can to the pacific via the editor.

[RyanCrierie]

Why not take one of the existing scenarios, and file the edges off it?
 
Say, set your scenario in 1946 --- remember, the Z Plan was to be finished in 1945; and all of the German force planning before WWII predicated war breaking out in 1945ish...not in 1939.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Well I like all the German ships better than anything else so, Bismarck,Tirpitz Scharnhorst,Gneisenau,Admiral Graf Spee,Admiral Scheer & Lutzow along with all Heavy + Light cruisers, destroyers + U boats are being imported in to a new scenario of mine right now,will take some time to do but I want them included,so since I have the editor at my disposal that is exactly what I'm doing.[:D]

Seems a strange passtime as Bismarck, Graf Spee, Hipper, and most of the lighter ships were sunk well before the Pacific War began.., while Gneisinau and others were damaged beyond repair. And none of the rest were likely to survive a voyage to Japan in the face of the US and Royal Navies. Why not just put in some flying saucers?

[Canoerebel]

Don't forget to throw in some Confederate commerce raiders and ironclads.

[RyanCrierie]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Seems a strange passtime as Bismarck, Graf Spee, Hipper, and most of the lighter ships were sunk well before the Pacific War began.., while Gneisinau and others were damaged beyond repair. And none of the rest were likely to survive a voyage to Japan in the face of the US and Royal Navies. Why not just put in some flying saucers?

That's why I was suggesting to set it in an alternate 1946 -- it'd be interesting, because fleets would be a lot more modern overall -- a lot of ships hit their 20 year lives by then; requiring their replacement with more modern hulls.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Well I like all the German ships better than anything else so, Bismarck,Tirpitz Scharnhorst,Gneisenau,Admiral Graf Spee,Admiral Scheer & Lutzow along with all Heavy + Light cruisers, destroyers + U boats are being imported in to a new scenario of mine right now,will take some time to do but I want them included,so since I have the editor at my disposal that is exactly what I'm doing.[:D]

Seems a strange passtime as Bismarck, Graf Spee, Hipper, and most of the lighter ships were sunk well before the Pacific War began.., while Gneisinau and others were damaged beyond repair. And none of the rest were likely to survive a voyage to Japan in the face of the US and Royal Navies. Why not just put in some flying saucers?

No one could ever speculate seriously about the Germans or Italians sending their surface units to the pacific and thus stripping their home waters...
But if he wants to play with these units, why not a fun secnario with all the involved navies of WW2 combined in the Pacific? So also all British and Russian ships there.
Won't change anything of the outcome, but might be even more funny as there are most likely many more surface actions.
One must also increase the fuel for both sides then, as I doubt Japan can feed the German and Italien fleet as well...

@hellfirejet

Well since there are no plans to do a Atlantic version of witp,I will transfer all I can to the pacific via the editor.

There is one, just look here:
tm.asp?m=2179993
But I doubt there'll be even just a roughly playable version (without personalized units and merchants) before mid 2010...

[RyanCrierie]

The Z Plan called for the following by 1945:
 
Four aircraft carriers, (two of the Graf Zeppelin-class, plus two others)
Six H Class battleships
Three "O Class" battlecruisers
Twelve "Kreuzer P Class" Panzerschiffe
Two Hipper Class heavy cruisers (Seydlitz, and Lützow)
Four "M Class" light cruisers
Two "Improved M Class" light cruisers
Six "Spähkreuzer Class" large destroyers
 
Now; if we assume this is wildly optimistic and cut some of the heavier units; you have enough scope for a 1946 scenario involving the German Pacific Squadron consisting of 1 CV, a few battleships, etc; against the british after war broke out in Europe in 1946.
 
Yes, I know, WWII being held off until 1945 or 1946 is not very probable, but it's at least a thin veneer of 'historicality'.

[Historiker]

THe war was planned for 1942 and even 1948 wasn't a realistic date for the Z-Plan.
Read Treue - Deutsche Marinerüstung, he shows quite good that ordering to build a ship doesn't build the ship, yet... [;)]


BTW: The initial plans in summer 1941 for an after war fleet when russia is conquered was nice: 200 Cruisers just for duty in the hinterland alone [;)]
You can imagine how the "real" fleet would've looked like, then [:D]

[RyanCrierie]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Read Treue - Deutsche Marinerüstung, he shows quite good that ordering to build a ship doesn't build the ship, yet... [;)]

Deutsche Marinerüstung 1919-1942
die Gefahren der Tirpitz-Tradition

by Wilhelm Treue
Published in 1992, E.S. Mittler (Herford)
?

BTW: The initial plans in summer 1941 for an after war fleet when russia is conquered was nice: 200 Cruisers just for duty in the hinterland alone [;)]

That from the above book? I need to get it; INSANITY.

[Historiker]

Now; if we assume this is wildly optimistic and cut some of the heavier units; you have enough scope for a 1946 scenario involving the German Pacific Squadron consisting of 1 CV, a few battleships, etc; against the british after war broke out in Europe in 1946.

Yes, I know, WWII being held off until 1945 or 1946 is not very probable, but it's at least a thin veneer of 'historicality'.

It's way too much work to turn an existing scenario into a 1946-1950, especially what planes should the axis have, then?
Also, a significant Pacific Station by Germany wasn't realistic before there was anything to defend, e.g. Colonies. But would Japan hand them back? [:D]
If the war begins, either Japan is out of China or there wasn't any oil embargo and China is conquered by Japan.

THe most simple thing is not even to try to declare this scenario as historically possible. Just call it a fun scenario and hand all Axis ships over to the Japs. The war would progress as historically, but with much more iron on the bottom... - and thus more fun!
As TFs are limited in numbers, even a major defeat wouldn't mean the end (at least to the Battlefleet) as there where about 10-15 additional BBs. [&o]

[Historiker]

Deutsche Marinerüstung 1919-1942
die Gefahren der Tirpitz-Tradition

by Wilhelm Treue
Published in 1992, E.S. Mittler (Herford)

Yes, good book! Very easy to read and still very informative. If you read German or its out in english, take a look, its worth it! It also descirbes quite good the problems germany had to face.
Why the Panzerschiffe, why the CAs with their complicated engines, why small BBs (not BCs!!!) like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, why just one carrier that wasn't completed, etc...

About the Z-Plan, that's from
"Siegfried Breyer: Marine Arsenal. (Number unknown) Der Z-Plan (date and year unknown, but you should find it when you look after "Marine Arsenal - Z-Plan"

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Well I like all the German ships better than anything else so, Bismarck,Tirpitz Scharnhorst,Gneisenau,Admiral Graf Spee,Admiral Scheer & Lutzow along with all Heavy + Light cruisers, destroyers + U boats are being imported in to a new scenario of mine right now,will take some time to do but I want them included,so since I have the editor at my disposal that is exactly what I'm doing.[:D]

Seems a strange passtime as Bismarck, Graf Spee, Hipper, and most of the lighter ships were sunk well before the Pacific War began.., while Gneisinau and others were damaged beyond repair. And none of the rest were likely to survive a voyage to Japan in the face of the US and Royal Navies. Why not just put in some flying saucers?

NCC 1701 Enterprise Captain Kirk in command[:D] Klingon Bird of prey Japanese side hehehe[:D]

My point is I can do it via the editor,so I will it's a what if scenario,[;)]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Deutsche Marinerüstung 1919-1942
die Gefahren der Tirpitz-Tradition

by Wilhelm Treue
Published in 1992, E.S. Mittler (Herford)

Yes, good book! Very easy to read and still very informative. If you read German or its out in english, take a look, its worth it! It also descirbes quite good the problems germany had to face.
Why the Panzerschiffe, why the CAs with their complicated engines, why small BBs (not BCs!!!) like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, why just one carrier that wasn't completed, etc...

About the Z-Plan, that's from
"Siegfried Breyer: Marine Arsenal. (Number unknown) Der Z-Plan (date and year unknown, but you should find it when you look after "Marine Arsenal - Z-Plan"

I just want to see Bismarck,Tirpitz,Scharnhorst & Gneisenau in a task force,and low and behold I added them tonight great,just need ship art for them[:)]

This is just a fun what if scenario with all the available Axis Fleets helping fight the allies in the pacific.[;)]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
No one could ever speculate seriously about the Germans or Italians sending their surface units to the pacific and thus stripping their home waters... But if he wants to play with these units, why not a fun secnario with all the involved navies of WW2 combined in the Pacific? So also all British and Russian ships there.

He's of course free to do whatever he wishes..., I just said it seemed a strange thing to do. [8|] And if he wanted to stray into the realms of fantasy, why stop with sunken German Ships? [&:]

[DuckofTindalos]

The Z-Plan has less chance of succeeding than Japan's 8-8 scheme, and the 8-8 scheme had NO chance of success.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Z-Plan has less chance of succeeding than Japan's 8-8 scheme, and the 8-8 scheme had NO chance of success.

Depends, my friend, depends [;)]
The hyper-optimistic timetable was totally unrealistic. But if it shoudn't be completed before 1954-60, why not if there's the money (which is another problem, Mefo-Wechsel didn't work any further as well as the "5 Mark in der Woche musst Du sparen, willst Du einen Volkswagen fahren" plundering of the car-fonds for workers)?

[DuckofTindalos]

But that wasn't the declared aim of the plan. Speculation is another thing.