4E bombers...

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

that remembers me when the british said useing the "88 FLAK" in north africa against tanks was unfair.[:D]

Why was it that the allies never used one of their AA guns in a similar fashion ?

Doctrine.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: hmota

I made some test with tojos and tonys equiped with cannons...the results is the same none 4E going down

...and finally Ki-84b with 4x20mm cannons...the same results...
all test were made on aleutian scenario...

That should not be happening. The land-based IJN fighters (the 'J's) were also designed as interceptors. Try them.

[88l71]

Didn't they get the 90mm on the Pershing and M36 from the 90mm AA???

[Historiker]

The 17 Pounder from the Sherman Firefly was a derivate of the 17 Pounder Flak as well, but to develope a tank gun from a AA gun isn't the same as using a AA gun for ground combat.

[EUBanana]

As the Allies I've seen B17s get shot down, indeed they seem to me to be more vulnerable than they were in WITP.

I sent the Philippines B17 squadrons to Java and started bombing Kuching when the AI took it - small raids, 4 bombers apiece usually.  I soon found it simply didn't work.  1 B17 got shot down by the ~6 Zero CAP every time they flew, and B17s take aaaaages to get fixed, so having them all shot up in a raid simply wasn't profitable use of them - especially as they were on half loads flying from Java anyway.

[ram_971]

I am almost 4 months into the Guadalcanal campaign and the unescorted 4Es usually go through the CAP. Although many 4E have been shot down, the fighter losses are quite similar and now the Japanese fighter arm is completely depleted.

The 4Es are being also very effective against the AK ships. Sending a supply convoy to New Guinea requires a huge escort (including all my CVs and BBs) and even with this CAP and AA protection they always are able to hit many AKs.

[John Lansford]

Your B-17's are doing a lot better than mine then; it's January 1 and my Philippine bombers have hit two cargo ships, total.  Btw, how do you move them to Java?  Mine are still listed as part of the restricted command and it costs a lot to switch them to something else.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Your B-17's are doing a lot better than mine then; it's January 1 and my Philippine bombers have hit two cargo ships, total.  Btw, how do you move them to Java?  Mine are still listed as part of the restricted command and it costs a lot to switch them to something else.

The PP cost depends on how many there are, and when I moved them they were down to about six a/c.

I built them up a bit, with upgrades, but they still contributed nothing, I ended up sending them to Darwin.

One thing that doesn't help in the early war is the B-17 crew experience, which is awful at essentially everything. They need a couple of months training.

That said 2 months doing training missions really makes a big difference. The ABDA P-40 squadron reinforcements - I sent one in ill trained, it got cut to ribbons, and one trained in air-to-air, and even though their experience was very bad (40-50 for both) the difference was very marked.

[bigbaba]

the repair time for the B-17 is much much longer then in WITP. i sent 25 B-17 out of australia to a ground bombing mission N of PM (an 18 hex range mission) and after the turn noone was shot down but 8 were damaged. each turn, only 2-3 damaged AC were rapaired and all that without a CAP and only caused by AA fire. i can imaine that with fighter resiatance more then half of the B-17 wouldnt be able to fly the next day. later in the game, against better japanese fighters, the out of action number of the bombers must be even higher after a hard mission.

i like the way the game handels 4E bombers. hard to kill, but also hard to bring back to service.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

the repair time for the B-17 is much much longer then in WITP. i sent 25 B-17 out of australia to a ground bombing mission N of PM (an 18 hex range mission) and after the turn noone was shot down but 8 were damaged. each turn, only 2-3 damaged AC were rapaired and all that without a CAP and only caused by AA fire. i can imaine that with fighter resiatance more then half of the B-17 wouldnt be able to fly the next day. later in the game, against better japanese fighters, the out of action number of the bombers must be even higher after a hard mission.

i like the way the game handels 4E bombers. hard to kill, but also hard to bring back to service.

The problem is that even with the long repair times, the paper airplanes the Japanese are trying to shoot them down with are lost forever, not just damaged.

[bsq]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

The 17 Pounder from the Sherman Firefly was a derivative of the 17 Pounder Flak as well, but to develop a tank gun from a AA gun isn't the same as using a AA gun for ground combat.

The OQF 17 Pdr was an entirely bespoke (anti-tank) weapon. British Heavy AA was based around the 3" and 3.7", with the latter weapon being standard after 1941.

[Captain Cruft]

I think (playing the GC) that the 4Es work just fine. Tojos do very well against them, and even Nates can bring them down occasionally.

Doubtless experience is a major factor in all this.

What I am really looking for though is at what point the Allied player can amass the vast 8th Air Force style raids that were commonplace in stock. If it's before 1944 I will be annoyed ...

[scout1]

DOn't know about AE yet, but my experience with WitP was that the Allies don't need no stinking fighters. Merely fly those 4E devils into major bases and get a damn respectable kill ratio of Japanese fighters to bombers..... Hell, I'd rather go up against the best of the Allies fighters before having to face the 4E devils .....

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I think (playing the GC) that the 4Es work just fine. Tojos do very well against them, and even Nates can bring them down occasionally.

Doubtless experience is a major factor in all this.

What I am really looking for though is at what point the Allied player can amass the vast 8th Air Force style raids that were commonplace in stock. If it's before 1944 I will be annoyed ...

If you are bringing them down with Tojo's in the grand campaign in AE, then that is an improvement over Vanilla. And you don't even want to know how bad it is in CHS Nik Mod...

[hmota]

I make another test...try Franks with 90exp pilots against Liberators... results is similar like with Tojos Tonys and zeros...after one month of practicaly daily bomb strikes jap pilots were unable to shot down even single Liberator...lost during this month are practicaly the same no matter which fighter japannese player use (zero, tony, tojo, frank) 4-6 liberators are downed by flak, 5-8 are ops loses...1/4 to 1/2 of Liberators are permanently damaged...

even more japs pilots which have 40-50 mission each makes mo progres in skills...first change I notice after trying sweep with Lightnings and losing 3 of them...

this test was made on modified aleutian scenario(almost mid ´43)...so far don´t know how it will be in GC...

[bigbaba]

at least in stocks you can bring down 4E with advanced japanese fighters in a large number. that happend to the last big allied raid in my game:

Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 63
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 132

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 107
B-24D Liberator x 43

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 14 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 7 destroyed, 93 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 40 destroyed, 27 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 22 destroyed

the allied can not mount more raids like this without fighter escort because of the loses.

maybe someone can do more testing via ediotor?

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

at least in stocks you can bring down 4E with advanced japanese fighters in a large number. that happend to the last big allied raid in my game:

Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 63
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 132

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 107
B-24D Liberator x 43

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 14 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 7 destroyed, 93 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 40 destroyed, 27 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 22 destroyed

the allied can not mount more raids like this without fighter escort because of the loses.

maybe someone can do more testing via ediotor?

Are you talking about AE or WitP??[X(]
And which date is it?

[bigbaba]

WITP, end of 1942.

as i said about my experiences in AE, even with enough aviation support and a large airfield, it takes much much longer to fix damaged 4E bombers now. that alone should reduce the number of AC and the frequency of air attacks of the allied bomber armada.

[EUBanana]

I've found 4Es to be almost useless so far.  They spend their days at airfields being fixed.  Things are sad indeed when 20 Betties vs 20 B17s in a long range bomber duel (Batavia vs Kuching) results in the B17s giving up and going to Australia, leaving half their fellows behind due to being 'in maintenance'.

Admittedly this is 1942 and they are 20 odd B17s.  Liberators have a better service rating I think, may be a different story.  Also airbase size I imagine would be less of an issue in 1943, as it is the B17s are always in non-optimal airfields.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: rominet

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

at least in stocks you can bring down 4E with advanced japanese fighters in a large number. that happend to the last big allied raid in my game:

Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 63
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 132

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 107
B-24D Liberator x 43

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 14 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 7 destroyed, 93 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 40 destroyed, 27 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 22 destroyed

the allied can not mount more raids like this without fighter escort because of the loses.

maybe someone can do more testing via ediotor?

Are you talking about AE or WitP??[X(]
And which date is it?

A big key to that type of success is to make sure you preserve your experienced pilots by not over-using them in the earlier stages. You need 80+ experience groups to down bombers.