Force Z sucide Run

[Przemcio231]

Hmmmm i think the sucide run should be deleted from 7th December Scenario. The ships got hit on 10th December and using historical first turn they either get clobbered on the 8th or not at all. I feal that the players should decide if they want to send them on their dead raid or maybe use them other way[:)]

[Erik Rutins]

Did you see the earlier thread on this? Don't forget that you need to add one day because of the dateline. They had actually sailed out of Singapore at the point of the start of the scenario, as I understand it.

[Shark7]

And they got clobbered after VAdm Phillips decided to turn around...of course had they made it to Khota Baharu, they'd have gotten clobbered by Kongo/Haruna as well. The two capital ships of Force Z were an even match for the Kongo's, but they didn't have air cover or adequate escort. If they had made it there, and air power played a role, the result would have likely been the same.

Although I have seen the AI do serious damage with a Force Z sent to Khota Baharu, so you never know...

[Q-Ball]

Force Z left Singapore 1710 Dec 8th local time, which was 2310 Dec 7th Hawaii time. This was mentioned in previous thread.

They don't always sink; in my game I got PoW, but Repluse got away.

[Fletcher]

Allied players usually run out with Force Z saiLing to secure waters at Java or Ceylan, I ever think this was a gamey. Every players knows the Betty-Nell threat, but in dec 1941, VADM Phillips had not care about, when he was adVice by RAF at Singapore that he can not await any air cover, FORCE Z run to north looking for japanese amphibius forces. The airpower was not a uNbalanced factor in Any naval battle before dec.1941.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Hmmmm i think the sucide run should be deleted from 7th December Scenario. The ships got hit on 10th December and using historical first turn they either get clobbered on the 8th or not at all. I feal that the players should decide if they want to send them on their dead raid or maybe use them other way[:)]

The fix for this is incredibly simple. Turn historic first turn off. Change the orders for Force Z. Execute turn. Everything is the same except Force Z.

You could also change the task force orders or even location in the editor.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

Allied players usually run out with Force Z saiLing to secure waters at Java or Ceylan, I ever think this was a gamey. Every players knows the Betty-Nell threat, but in dec 1941, VADM Phillips had not care about, when he was adVice by RAF at Singapore that he can not await any air cover, FORCE Z run to north looking for japanese amphibius forces. The airpower was not a uNbalanced factor in Any naval battle before dec.1941.

Actually, wasn't Vadm Phillips quoted as stating 'There are no torpedo bombers about.' when informed that the Betties were making torpedo runs by one of his subordinates?

[John Lansford]

They don't always get sunk; in my campaign PoW wasn't hit and Repulse managed to stagger back into Singapore with 80+ flotation damage.  She'll probably stay there until the city surrenders and be scuttled, but it's not certain that they'll be sunk every time.

[moonraker65]

I sent them back to Singapore after the first attack. Repulse sustained 1 Torp hit and 1 bomb hit with 14 sys and 34 flt damage. Then added in some other RN ships from Singapore and evacuated them sharpish to Colombo.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Force Z left Singapore 1710 Dec 8th local time, which was 2310 Dec 7th Hawaii time.

I think the basic complaint with this is that the TF didn't leave Singapore until the early evening of the first turn (December 7th/8th depending on which side of the dateline). In the game, they are usually attacked, and often sunk, during the first daylight turn phase---or basically BEFORE they even left port historically.

They don't last two days to be attacked on the 10th..., they don't even last two minutes. It's not history, it's a scenario design device. You want history? Turn "Historical First Turn" OFF. Otherwise accept the scenario designer's choice.

[steveh11Matrix]

Yup: In my first three "Let's see what this puppy does" startups both were sunk quickly, but then I decided to start 'for real' and this time around PoW took one torp for light damage only and Repulse has just (12th Dec) staggered into Singapore - I'd imagine with one hell of a list and a lot more draught then normal, based on the flotation damage... She may get out of Singapore if I can patch her up, but she's a definite mission kill for the next year. Currently PoW is the nearest thing to an operational dreadnought in the Pacific - though I'll get Warspite and Colorado back from Seattle soon.

My first instinct (and initial reaction, as posted on the other thread) was to edit the startup for Force Z. Further thought has changed that. After all, we don't shriek that the battleships ought to be on the West Coast instead of sitting ducks at Pearl, do we? Let the dice fly, and deal with it.

Steve.

[Scott_USN]

I go the BB back to Colombo BC sunk

IN my first game they both survived by taking them back to Batavia not Singapore...

[Puhis]

Royal Navy didn't know the words 'running away'. [:)]

[Przemcio231]

Ahhh ok found it[:)] Any way in my game Force Z survived to[:D]

[RHoenig]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Royal Navy didn't know the words 'running away'. [:)]

Have to agree here [:)]

In my game, PoW and Repulse get sunk along with the DD Tenedos.
I would have almost sent the cover force to new targets but then decided to let them stay just a day longer.

Imagine my suprise, when the remaining three DDs from Force Z showed up at Kota Bharu during the night after.

It got tense, when both TFs spotted each other at 1000 yards and I realy expected the torps to start hitting, but the IJN was lucky.
Haruna blew Vampire out of the water (using their 15cm secondaries) and, Asashio I belive, put a Long Lance into Electra. Then the Express retreated, but got an 8 inch shell as a goodby gift from Takao.

Those brits sure deserve some medals for bravery, not for clear thinking though [;)]


Ralph Hoenig, Germany

[Przemcio231]

Well i decided against the sucide Run when my ships survived:)

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Force Z left Singapore 1710 Dec 8th local time, which was 2310 Dec 7th Hawaii time.

I think the basic complaint with this is that the TF didn't leave Singapore until the early evening of the first turn (December 7th/8th depending on which side of the dateline). In the game, they are usually attacked, and often sunk, during the first daylight turn phase---or basically BEFORE they even left port historically.

They don't last two days to be attacked on the 10th..., they don't even last two minutes. It's not history, it's a scenario design device. You want history? Turn "Historical First Turn" OFF. Otherwise accept the scenario designer's choice.

Sums it up perfectly for me. Except I chose to beat history.

Always ran "Historic First Turn" in WitP but couldn't stomach the loss of PoW via someone else's choice. So I turned it off and restarted.

PoW is now assigned to guarding Java and eventually (if she survives) Western Australia.

[alanschu]

I actually support this decision, since we as gamers have foresight that make us go "Why on Earth would I send my ships to death?"

I'm sure the Allies would have loved to have a mulligan on PoW and Repulse, and to be honest I find saving the ships to be an immensely advantageous move.  The PoW is a beast of a ship.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: alanschu

I actually support this decision, since we as gamers have foresight that make us go "Why on Earth would I send my ships to death?"

I'm sure the Allies would have loved to have a mulligan on PoW and Repulse, and to be honest I find saving the ships to be an immensely advantageous move.  The PoW is a beast of a ship.

I find being able to move half way across the map in any direction without losing the element of surprise immensely advanageous. I'll not save PoW if the Japs promise not to invade Rabaul until after Christmas. The only reason that move is pre-programmed is because of the advantage of historical hindsight.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: alanschu

I actually support this decision, since we as gamers have foresight that make us go "Why on Earth would I send my ships to death?"

I'm sure the Allies would have loved to have a mulligan on PoW and Repulse, and to be honest I find saving the ships to be an immensely advantageous move.  The PoW is a beast of a ship.

But isn't the whole point of playing a "simulation game" to be able to make these decisions yourself? Isn't the standard phrase "Otherwise why not just read a book?" Or does this only apply to the Japanese side?