Include Axis powers ?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

ORIGINAL: Historiker

And to your "Germany gets the colonies back"
May be an option, but what fleet parts could be there? 1-2 Panzerschiffe, maybe 1 or 2 crusiers and 10 subs - not more.


There's no way leading around a full scale fantasy scenario to include the German (and Italian) fleet on the Japanese side. It should be declared this way and the Brits should recieve all of their fleet as well, but it might be interesting.

In my scenario I'm not only using all German & Italian fleets on the Japanese side, All British ships including the already sunk BB Royal Oak + Barham BC Hood CV Ark Royal etc are included,this scenario is for fun only not historical I just want to see what would happen plus since I'm from the UK all the ships have more meaning in my eyes.

Don't forget the FRENCH! In this Fantasy they haven't surrendered yet...

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

ORIGINAL: Historiker

And to your "Germany gets the colonies back"
May be an option, but what fleet parts could be there? 1-2 Panzerschiffe, maybe 1 or 2 crusiers and 10 subs - not more.


There's no way leading around a full scale fantasy scenario to include the German (and Italian) fleet on the Japanese side. It should be declared this way and the Brits should recieve all of their fleet as well, but it might be interesting.

In my scenario I'm not only using all German & Italian fleets on the Japanese side, All British ships including the already sunk BB Royal Oak + Barham BC Hood CV Ark Royal etc are included,this scenario is for fun only not historical I just want to see what would happen plus since I'm from the UK all the ships have more meaning in my eyes.

Don't forget the FRENCH! In this Fantasy they haven't surrendered yet...

Ok I wont forget the French navy, but it takes time to update the data base to include all these ships.but the good news is some have already been added in a trial run and it's great having a TF of German surface ships ie Bismarck,Tirpitz,Scharnhorst,Gneisenau + 10 destroyers and 3 TF with a pocket battleship in each. I'm also in the process of updating all ships in the data base with increased DURABILITY,MANOUVERABILITY + MUCH MORE AA DEFENCE CAPABLE.[:D]
Sample of information regarding Bismarck etc.

German Battleship Bismarck
Displacement: 41,700 tonnes standard 50,900 tonnes full load
Length: 251 metres (823.5 ft) overall
241.5 metres (792.3 ft) waterline Beam: 36.0 metres (118.1 ft) waterline Draft: 9.3 metres (30.5 ft) standard
10.2 metres (33.5 ft) full load Propulsion: 12 Wagner high-pressure;
3 Blohm & Voss geared turbines;
3 three-blade propellers, 4.70 m diameter
150,170 hp (121 MW) Speed: 31 knots
Armament:
8 × 380 mm/L52 SK C/34 (4×2)
12 × 150 mm/L55 SK-C/28 (6×2)
16 × 105 mm/L65 SK-C/37 / SK-C/33 (8×2)
16 × 37 mm/L83 SK-C/30
12 × 20 mm/L65 MG C/30
8 × 20 mm/L65 MG C/32 (8×4)
Armour: Belt: 145 to 320 mm
Deck: 110 to 120 mm
Bulkheads: 220 mm
Turrets: 130 to 360 mm
Barbettes: 342 mm
Conning tower: 360 mm Aircraft carried: 4×Arado Ar 196 A-3, with 1 double-ended catapult
General characteristics
Crew: Two (pilot and observer)
Length: 11.7 m (38 ft 6 in)
Wingspan: 15.1 m (49 ft 6 in)
Height: 5 m (16 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 37.9 m² (408 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,980 kg (6,580 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 3,720 kg (8,200 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Bramo 323 9-cylinder radial engine, 620 kW (830 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 311 km/h (193 mph)
Range: 1,080 km (670 mi)
Service ceiling: 7,010 m (23,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 300 m/min (980 ft/min)
Wing loading: 98.2 kg/m² (20.1 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 167 W/kg (0.101 hp/lb)
Armament
Guns:
1 × 7.92 mm MG 15
1 × 7.92 mm MG 17
2 × 20 mm MG FF cannons
Bombs: 2 × 50 kg (110 lb) bombs

280mm /L54 SK C/34 Scharnhorst +Graf spee class 11" Gun
203mm/L60 SK C/34 Hipper class 8" guns
Sample of data regarding German surface ships.

[Historiker]

Well, make the French Vichy-French and let them fight beside German, Italy and Japan against the perfid Albion [;)]
I guess that won't change a thing, especially if the USN is also in the pacific in full strength.

btw: The Brazilian dreadnought may also show up (I guess only one was left servicable, but doesn't matter, why not both?)

In the end, this might change nothing in the balance - but it might be a hell of fun with all this Battleships![&o]

[Historiker]

Don't forget to give the German ships their correct guns! They were usually more powerful and faster to reload than the allied counterparts!

Siegfried Breyer: Schlachtschiffe und Schlachtkreuzer (Battleships and Battlecruisers) has the full data for all guns.


The Scharnhorst class had 28cm, so 280mm NOT 283mm! As well as the pocket battleships and the two old pre-dreadnoughts.

[NormS3]

Loved that series, added a couple of the ships in just for fun!

Would love to see a game/senario based on his work and would be quick to volunteer any help.[:)]

[Dili]

I'd like to see the historical evidence for any plan to have Italian warships fighting for the Allies in the Pacific during 1945-46. The words "far" and "fetched" just don't seem to be far or fetched enough...

Closing the Ring By Winston Churchill

http://books.google.com/books?id=xcL77- ... q=&f=false

" We had however thought that Italian Fleet would play its part against
Japan, and we had been planning to tropicalise the Littorios"


http://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=149

Taken as reparations, she was originally planned to be used against southern coast of Vichy-France and then in the Pacific against Japan, but the plan was not carried out. She was scrapped in 1948.

Italian cruisers were sent to Freetown(not South Africa like i said in error) to patrol the Atlantic in 1944 then when there wasn't anymore danger from german Auxiliary cruisers they returned to Italy.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

By the way I have also added German E boats,to my scenario to defend my German TFs Based at Truk, + harass Allied merchant ships and they are doing a great job,already sunk some ships with them, plus Bismarck got her first success hitting a USA destroyer with 3 15" shells which off course caused critical damage sinking the destroyer![:D]

[Dili]

S(chnell)-Boot not E-Boats it is horrible that erroneous British definition is still around.At least F(ast)-Boats!

[Alfred]

The only way I can see that you could include (without it becoming a complete fantasy) Italian naval assets in the Japanese OOB would be to:
 
(a) treat the Italian cargo carrying subs which transported cargo back to Bordeaux as being permanently allocated to PTO operations (out of Japanese ports) laying mines or hunting Allied merchantment,
 
(b) assume that the entire Italian Red Sea flotilla (and not just the subsequent sub remnants which operated out of Penang) was given orders before 10 June 1940 to relocate to Japan for "internment" pending reactivation upon Japanese entry into the war.
 
Yes, I realise that this would be somewhat "creative" but at least it would not be too far off realism compared to importing into the Japanese December 1941 OOB sunken German ships.
 
Alfred

[Dili]

Of course you can always imagine that war went diferently in Europe. Dunkerque that goes badly, a Battle of Britain that cripples Britain, a successful take of Suez canal by Axis, Spain in side of Axis as consequence and Gibraltar conquered. Italian cruisers based in Massaua, this a big whole what if.