Force Z sucide Run

[alanschu]

The only reason that move is pre-programmed is because of the advantage of historical hindsight.

Of course it is.


The thing is, the Japanese get the movement bonus for a single turn (and it's a moot point if you play historical first turn, since their orders are preprogrammed anyways).  Keeping the Prince of Wales and Repulse provides an advantage far beyond a single day.

I take my chances with Force Z and let the ships attempt their run.  After they get attacked, if they survive, I retreat.  I lost Repulse but PoW is heavily crippled in Singapore's shipyard at the moment.  She might be able to see some active duty, but probably not for about year.

I also support quick landings of Rabaul because if the Japanese AI is completely predictable, then it makes the game even easier.


If I wanted I could have chosen in my game to leave Wake Island to be dead, but at the time there were only surface ships so with Lexington being nearby, I assisted, bombing several ships.  Unfortunately the Kido Butai got wind of this and was able to launch a strike force that left Lexington and two cruisers at the bottom of the ocean.  With foresight I knew it was a risky manouver, but leaving the Marines on Wake Island to die without a single attempt to help them seems gamey.  Imagine the morale of the rest of the soldiers as Prince of Wales and Repulse buggers off and abandons the British forces to go help the Dutch.

[Graymane]

These ships need to be in port unless a way can be found to make sure they aren't attacked until the 10th. At this point, I'm just playing the Dec. 8th scenario (not just because of this). Seems to make more sense for me. Can't get more "historical" then just starting the next day with all the day 1 attacks done [:)]

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: alanschu

The only reason that move is pre-programmed is because of the advantage of historical hindsight.

Of course it is.


The thing is, the Japanese get the movement bonus for a single turn (and it's a moot point if you play historical first turn, since their orders are preprogrammed anyways).  Keeping the Prince of Wales and Repulse provides an advantage far beyond a single day.

I take my chances with Force Z and let the ships attempt their run.  After they get attacked, if they survive, I retreat.  I lost Repulse but PoW is heavily crippled in Singapore's shipyard at the moment.  She might be able to see some active duty, but probably not for about year.

I also support quick landings of Rabaul because if the Japanese AI is completely predictable, then it makes the game even easier.


If I wanted I could have chosen in my game to leave Wake Island to be dead, but at the time there were only surface ships so with Lexington being nearby, I assisted, bombing several ships.  Unfortunately the Kido Butai got wind of this and was able to launch a strike force that left Lexington and two cruisers at the bottom of the ocean.  With foresight I knew it was a risky manouver, but leaving the Marines on Wake Island to die without a single attempt to help them seems gamey.  Imagine the morale of the rest of the soldiers as Prince of Wales and Repulse buggers off and abandons the British forces to go help the Dutch.

[:D]

No doubt. Of course morale also nosedived when I saw PoW & Repulse sunk right after I pushed the "Start Scenario" button.

Sure, I feel dirty for what I did. It still beats writing all those letters home - I don't have the option of going down with the ship.

The real issue for me wasn't saving the ship or not, it was having the decision made for me. Once I restarted I then felt obligated to send her south.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Graymane

These ships need to be in port unless a way can be found to make sure they aren't attacked until the 10th. At this point, I'm just playing the Dec. 8th scenario (not just because of this). Seems to make more sense for me. Can't get more "historical" then just starting the next day with all the day 1 attacks done [:)]

I would have happily used the Dec 8th scenario but I wasn't sure if it got the same level of attention by the design team as the Grand Campaign.

[wpurdom]

I'm in the camp with the scenario designer's choice being more historically accurate. The Brits had been dealing with incessant German air attacks in the Med and anticipated the Japs being inferior to the Germans. Big surprise! Pearl Harbor was discounted because it was a surprise attack in a harbor like Taranto. There's no way that Force Z refuses to do its job of attempting to interfere with the invasion any more than Cunningham would have turned away from the invasion of Crete.
After the Japs have had their shot, then the Brits can reevaluate their capabilities. Letting the Allied player opt out of the Japanese attack on Force "Z" is like letting the Americas send their BB's back to the Coast before Pearl Harbor.

[Swayin]

Isn't the point of this game, in many respects, to try your own luck at doing better than history? I mean, just because a commander sent his ships on a suicide run doesn't make it "gamey" to decide *not* to do that, IMO.

[Q-Ball]

Until Force Z, no ship larger than a heavy cruiser had ever been sunk by aircraft at sea. Couple this with the RN tradition of aggressiveness, and Phillip's orders to do something to stop the Japanese, and I am in the camp that this needs to happen.

We players have the advantage of hindsight of course. But this lesson IRL could only be learned the hard way.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Royal Navy didn't know the words 'running away'. [:)]

There was an incident in WWI where an admiral from a famous RN family, Troubridge, commanding an AC squadron well . . . I wouldn't say ran away from the BC Goeben during its run accross the Med . . . perhaps veered off is a better term. The uproar from that event was probably rattling around in Phillip's head.

[Swayin]

I also think this "traditional of aggressiveness" is overstated ... Jellicoe's waffling thirty years before shows that, IMO. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here - I think everyone is *right*, regardless of how they choose to play it out.

again, just my 2 pennies.

[esteban]

I have always thought the "Force Z bugout" strategy was bogus. Historically, these ships were sent to Singapore precisely to break up Japanese landings in the area. Nobody at the time suspected that the Japanese could successfully launch torpedo bombers over a distance of 400-500 miles, and it would have been a scandal for Force Z to run for their lives without trying and leave Percival's troops to their fate. Keep in mind that Churchill (a former First Lord of the Admiralty in both WW1 and the beginning of WW2) himself had championed sending these ships to Singapore. How do you think he would have reacted to a December 8 message saying "We realize you and the army were counting on us to oppose the Japanese fleet in these waters, and that the Australian government has publicly stated that holding Singapore is vital to the defense of their dominion, but based on my own estimation of Japanese airpower I have abandoned our pre-eminent Southeast Asian base and its garrison and moved the squadron to Ceylon/Java"

The reply back would have been something like "Dear Seaman 3rd Class--once you get there, report to the base commander for toilet scrubbing duties more befitting your value to the empire."

On the timing side, the first turn was always a bit wierd anyway. The Japanese didnt land on North Luzon and Legaspi until the 10th of December or something like that historically, but in WitP they invade first turn.

Options:

--Do historical turn 1 and hope the Japanese pilots missed the "war starts today!" memo
--Do non-historical turn 1 and take your chances that the Japanese invasion fleets warp across the Pacific invading 20 islands in one day.

With the new pilot training rules the Allies need to do the "Sir Robin" has already been greatly reduced.

[spence]

Was not the risk of the loss of the KB to an American counterattack AFTER the Pearl Harbor Raid a prominent consideration in Nagumo's calculus? If we are to justify canceling out Allied Player intervention in the decision to risk the PoW to Japanese airpower why is Nagumo allowed to behave differently. The results of the PH raid in AE have seemed to be weighted heavily towards a more devastating attack than historically with the number of reported hits here, there, and everywhere approximating or even exceeding the number of attacking aircraft. In the game Nagumo has absolutely no worries about an Allied counterattack and has more fuel and weaponry than was available for his ships and is thus utterly free to make a third strike, a fourth strike and etc, secure in the knowledge that the Allied Player can do nothing much about it except pray that he gets some storms settle in over Oahu.

[Erik Rutins]

He does not have more fuel or weaponry than historical. The rest is certainly debatable and I could understand a house rule that says "do the historical strike and leave" or just play the December 8th scenario.

[jazman]

That we are playing a game means we get to apply the lessons learned from WWII. (A good AI should be able to throw new lessons at us, too.) Anyway, there are easy workaounds to the Force Z and Fanatical Attacking Nagumo "problems". Easy. If you can learn this game, these workarounds are childishly easy.