What if...

[Warrior]

American never got involved in WWII, FDR never got elected to a third term and we declared ourselves neutral, we sent no help to England, there was no attack on Pearl Harbor, Britian capitulated in early 1942, Russia was conquered, and the war ended in 1944. In 1945 the US demonstrated the A-bomb and B-29 and Germany and Japan were told to stay out of the western hemisphere (which they did).

Germany dominated Europe to the Urals, the mid-east, and much of Africa (particularly the former Allied colonies). Japan controlled most of Asia, India, and the Pacific, including Australia which fell after a long struggle. Both Germany and Japan consolidated their new territories.

But then the victors had a falling-out, and Japanese and German troops began to have clashes over unclaimed or lightly garrisoned territory.

It is now January 1947, and a new war is about to begin.

Be looking for Japs vs Nazi's soon.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Well actually some facts here, because silly what ifs only make a person look bad.

The Germans never had any real chance of getting the bomb due to their racial bias against jewish science which drove out the real brains that had the answers the US later maximised on (this is common knowledge to people that read current theoretical physics in addition to military literature eh).

The Americans designed the B29 in direct response to a need to hit Japan over great distances, and weapons are designed normally out of need , not for the heck of it. So no B17 means no extrapolated development of the B29 means no long range delivery system by the US for quite some time.

With no horrible need though, the US has no reason to force paranoid scientists that are afraid of atomic weapons (and for good reason), to make them in the first place.

So we in the end see the close of the war lacking atomic weapons and long range bombers.

Japan would likely have run out of war materials in time thus angering the US (by the same means needed to get same in the first place) leading to the US (whom had no European distractions) quite brutally trashing the Japanese. Against an undistracted US, Japan has a zero chance of winning.

Germany knocking out Britain politically would have made the war in Russia bloodier, longer, and the Russians, a people ruled by the most ruthless man known to history, would likely still have out produced Hitler's not yet total war production efforts. It would have really trashed the efforts of world communism though. They would be set back for years.

The US having finished Japan in the late 40's might have been free to eventually meddle in European politics. But now I too am wandering into silly ramblings, so further discourse is pointless.

[Egg_Shen]

jesus les:mad:

it's a WHAT IF!


he's are saying Nazi and Japan have control over the entire world minus the western hemisphere . This is a given don't dispute it, also given in the WHAT IF criteria is Axis powers stay out of the western hemisphere.

US this, US that, slow down buddy :rolleyes:

this is one WHAT IF that doesn't include the US, if you don't like it don't post (I know this may be hard for you, but please try:( )

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Hey I am only saying, posting ludicrous potential what ifs on a site that is obsessed with "accuracy", is just a good way to get branded unworthy of being taken seriously.

Personally I read a lot of science fiction. But science fiction is science fiction. Military fiction on the other hand usually has to contend with credible realms of believability. Or it is labelled idiotic out of hand.

His notion might make for a whacky book, but as a game, nah I wouldn't personal invest the time on it, if that comment means anything to him.

Just so we clear up a matter though, I am no pro US toady (if my comments made that seem possible).

What ifs though, that are absurd, only illustrate that some people can't distinguish fact from fantasy. Not that I hate fantasy, but I usually call it fantasy.
A what if postulates it might have happened (or implies it might have been possible). But to postulate something as possible, when it is pure fantasy, is at best indicative of a person that will believe anything.

Now its no biggie if a person wishes to post a comment that is idiotic. But if he posts an idiotic notion, you can't fault me for saying it's idiotic, if he doesn't come right out and say "oh by the way, wouldn't this be a really wacky scenario".

Remember, most of us in here spend our energies exploring serious what ifs. And I haven't got time (or ability) to tell when a poster has leaped off the deep end, or just hasn't the slightest clue what he's talking about.

The final word Egg_Shen, it ISN"T a "what if", it wouldn't even make it in a comic book successfully as an idea.
Calling it a "what if" on a wargaming board, is just incredibly ill advised at the very least.

Oh here's a bucket of cold water in the face:) Wouldn't want you to over heat and explode on me:D Its hot enough now without wiping up Egg_Shen goo heheh.

By the way, what the heck does your nickname Egg_Shen mean?

[Egg_Shen]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1



By the way, what the heck does your nickname Egg_Shen mean?

that's for me to know and you to find out

[Warrior]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Well actually some facts here, because silly what ifs only make a person look bad.

The Germans never had any real chance of getting the bomb due to their racial bias against jewish science which drove out the real brains that had the answers the US later maximised on (this is common knowledge to people that read current theoretical physics in addition to military literature eh).

The Americans designed the B29 in direct response to a need to hit Japan over great distances, and weapons are designed normally out of need , not for the heck of it. So no B17 means no extrapolated development of the B29 means no long range delivery system by the US for quite some time.

With no horrible need though, the US has no reason to force paranoid scientists that are afraid of atomic weapons (and for good reason), to make them in the first place.

So we in the end see the close of the war lacking atomic weapons and long range bombers.

Japan would likely have run out of war materials in time thus angering the US (by the same means needed to get same in the first place) leading to the US (whom had no European distractions) quite brutally trashing the Japanese. Against an undistracted US, Japan has a zero chance of winning.

Germany knocking out Britain politically would have made the war in Russia bloodier, longer, and the Russians, a people ruled by the most ruthless man known to history, would likely still have out produced Hitler's not yet total war production efforts. It would have really trashed the efforts of world communism though. They would be set back for years.

The US having finished Japan in the late 40's might have been free to eventually meddle in European politics. But now I too am wandering into silly ramblings, so further discourse is pointless.

WELL! Goodness me, I am a silly boy. On the other hand, in the interests of defending my position, I'll reply point by point:

1) I never said anything about the Germans having the A-bomb or not.

2) The US, though neutral, began preparing for war and weapons development of all sorts continued throughout and after the war. We were not blind enough to think we were somehow safe in a world peopled by the likes of Hitler and Tojo. The B-29 was logical plane since long range bombers might be needed. What wasn't necessary, and never made it off the drawing board, was the B-17. (I might add that many new weapons systems have been developed seemingly "for the heck of it" since then.)

3) Many scientists were paranoid about atomic weapons, but others, being scientists, would have happily forged ahead.

4) Japan would not have run out of war materials. Not only did they take posession of the British areas after England collapsed, they also had China and a large chunk of Siberia, plus a huge pool of slave labor to exploit them. And the fact they weren't fighting us meant their war stocks would not have been drawn down.

5) Not having to fight a two-front war, the Germans rolled over the Russians before they got their factories moved behind the Urals. Stalin was captured and hung in Berlin. Communism essentially ceased to exist as a political force.

6) The US had no desire or need to go to war with the Germans or Japan, in the 40's or later, though we remained cautious and had a very stong defense establishment. Unlike our world today, there was no "meddling" in other countries affairs. We minded our own business, traded with everyone, and avoided foreign entanglements except for alliances with our neighbors in the western hemisphere.

In closing, Les, let me say that you are taking this whole idea WAY too seriously. I simply thought it would be fun to have the Japs and Germans go at it, and this was a way to justify it. Nor do I care if you ever play any of my scenarios. I design battles for my own enjoyment. If other players also like them, all the better. Incidentally, I also read science-fiction and believe in UFO's, and if that makes me look bad, TS.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Now REMF objecting I can handle, after all it was his post hehe.

Egg_Shen though, was undoubtedly constantly harrassed for running in the halls and chewing bubblegum in class me thinks.
Possibly even running with scissors and playing with sharp sticks.

[Warrior]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Now REMF objecting I can handle, after all it was his post hehe.

Egg_Shen though, was undoubtedly constantly harrassed for running in the halls and chewing bubblegum in class me thinks.
Possibly even running with scissors and playing with sharp sticks.

You're just not "getting it," Les. Not everyone is obsessed with historical accuracy. Some of us just play the game to have fun. BTW, the personal jibes at ES are not worthy of you.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Les,

I saw Egg_Shen doing jut that the other day. But it seemed to me that he had a hard time doing both!! Kept tripping hinself up you know!!:D :p

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I am NOT obsessed with historical accuracy.

Going to nip this right in the bud.

I AM obsessed with cute anime girls with large breasts and very short skirts (especially if they have guns).

Only a wierdo gets worked up over historical accuracy:D .

[Tankhead]

Originally posted by REMF


You're just not "getting it," Les. Not everyone is obsessed with historical accuracy. Some of us just play the game to have fun. BTW, the personal jibes at ES are not worthy of you.

Well said Warrior if I want the ultimate accuracy I will join the real army again.

[Warrior]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
I am NOT obsessed with historical accuracy.

Going to nip this right in the bud.

I AM obsessed with cute anime girls with large breasts and very short skirts (especially if they have guns).

Only a wierdo gets worked up over historical accuracy:D .

OK, but what kind of weirdo gets obsessed with cartoon girls with large breasts when there are real girls with them?

[Egg_Shen]

Oh I see what is happening, we have Les the Sarge 9-1 and Kevin E. Duguay





Big Dog is a bully who doesn't hesitate to use his superior strength
to intimidate other combatants. Big Dog may be smart, articulate or
just plain mean, but in any case he is a remorseless fighter, brutally
ripping into even the weakest of combatants. Once Big Dog securely
fastens his powerful jaws on a hapless victim, Me-Too will join the
attack. Me-Too is far too weak and insecure to engage in single
combat, and must ally himself with Big Dog or a pack of other
Warriors to bring down his quarry.




This is me (or is it?).



Target is the guy everyone in a forum loves to hate. To some degree
he brings this upon himself. For example, he may be a known cheater
in a game forum, a conservative among liberals, a Windows guy among
Mac enthusiasts, or even a man in a women's forum. Why Target places
himself in such dicey situations is anyone's guess, but he seems
genuinely oblivious to his precarious position. When Target inevitably
runs afoul of a forum's prevailing attitudes the other Warriors
unleash their collective fury upon him. His usual reaction is "Hey,
what did I do?" or "Why do you all hate me?" Target usually gets the
hint after a while and moves on. NOTE: Target often serves as a useful
pressure valve for the forum's pent up hostilities. Therefore, if the
current Target has been driven off or immobilized a new target will
be quickly selected. CAUTION: Target is a favorite disguise of
Troller amd Evil Clown.


You morons don't even know I'm really a Troller, but this this
Les the Sarge 9-1 guy....jesus he's like a retarded fish that doesn't
know when to stop biting.




Troller is looking for a response...ANY response, and he will
chum the waters with complaints, insults, compliments, and inflammatory
tidbits hoping that someone...ANYONE, will take the bait. Generally quite
harmless - practices a form of catch and release. Nonetheless, he can
upset the delicate ecology of a discussion forum. Once a forum becomes
aware of his presence, however, all feeding activity ceases and Troller
must move on to more promising waters.

[fontenoy]

Perhaps I'm being obvious here,so please bear with me.
Te entire "Cold War"arms build-up was fueled by two powerful military establishments who definitely considered the "what-if"in their strategic thinking.Granted,it is "what if"in the future tense.
Ithink every scenario or campaign played here is based on asking ourselves what if?We play in the hope that we can find those little "what ifs"that enable the Canadians to gain afoothold at Dieppe or the British Paras to link up with Frost's force at the Arnhem Bridge.I,for one ,would find it a very dull game if every scenario played out exactly history tells us they did.
So I see nothing wrong with a little speculation on what might have happened.Given the Isolationism of the majority of Americans prior to December 1941,they could have stayed out of the European war.Although given theur presence in the South Pacific,avoiding war with Japan would have proven difficult.This same isolationism was also prevelant prior to 1917,ie:let Europe solve it's own problems.I might also add it was a major platform in the presidential campaigns in 1916 and 1940.
At the very least,"what if?"can make for some very engaging and intelligent debate in our forums.I see nothing wrong with that.
As REMF said,it is a game.Yet I know of few other games that allow for such imaginative scope and yet engender such lively,learned and reasoned debate as we find on these boards.I humbly suggest that we are all the better for that.
Regards,
Fontenoy.

"It is not the bigger army that wins battles.It is the better army."

Maurice de Saxe

[Capt. Pixel]

Thanks! Those were pretty funny.

Les - I enjoyed the comments and historical perspective you provided in your first posting.

But, I believe that any 'what if' is, by definition, fantasy.

Only because it doesn't interpret any true reality directly. By True Reality, I mean that which is accepted as 'real' by the general consensus. Obviously, not all of our 'realities' are the same.

Any comment of 'what if' immediately becomes a conjecture in my mind. The degree to which I respond generally is related to the importance of the outcome.

'What if that child suddenly stumbles of the sidewalk into traffic?' Is going to get not only my attention, but certainly some action!

It might or might not happen (anything is Possible), but the potential risk is too high to not attempt to reduce the probability.

Having children of my own, the 'What Ifs' are a part of my life, and they irritate me no end. (I sympathize, Les)
"What if Jean Grey and Wolverine (X-men) fell in love and had triplets ..... nanner ..... nanner .... nanner?"
"What if YOU go play in the street?" :rolleyes:

What if the Allies won in Europe, AND Russia (*** Patton), but lose their grip in the Pacific (various 'out-of-their-***' battles weren't won.) Key pieces to the atomic puzzle eluded capture. Then the allies invade Japan through Asia in 1949?

What if I go play one of the billions of possible SPW@W scenarios/battles possible?

Remember that much accepted 'History' is just a compilation of someone else's 'fantasy' and may or may not reflect reality. (Or is that Mythology? )

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Bravo standing ovation here , when I am not to busy laughing that is:D:D

Hmmm am I the big dog? I don't feel like a big dog, retarded fish though, talk about getting blind sided that was sure funny, beats the heck out of Fanboy for sure.

I am speachless (not easy) dang that was a funny post.
I have never been so outrageously put down before.

My old platoon sarge would have awarded time off for that display I think.
Egg_Shen you shouldn't be so skimpy in the future eh.

You have talent.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Egg_Shen,
I'm proud of you, way to fight back!!!
Very nice and well done!!
I'll take care of you later!!!:mad:
But in the mean time , well done!!
Better than those goofy smiles or what-evers you used to post!

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

But he needs to empty his private message folder and stop responding to old mail.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Good point!!:D

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

All things considered... I find it rather comical that people think I am to serious eh.

Ask any of my friends here around town and they will all say unanimously that I am more than a little odd:) .

If I speak seriously, it only confuses them normally.

People tell me to "get a life" hmmm actually I spend my days having sex with the wife, eating, playing wargames, chatting online, and I don't have to work:) If it wasn't for the disability putting me here, most people would say I have it kinda good:)

It's true I am articulate (I can't help that, I read to many text books, its a side effect I guess). I am fairly educated (but then, reading text books all the time has it's side effects). I don't know about mean, but as an aries I suck at tact. I am used to just dealing in facts, but hey I do like to read fiction too eh.

Now what I want to know is, what's so thrilling about being Troll that enjoys being Targeted?, or are you one of the unusual types that likes girls in leather to mistreat you also:D