Case White AAR (After action report)

[ItBurns]

Ok, its been a long time since I played but I'm confused as to why the British would want to land units in either Denmark or the Netherlands (with a neutral Belgium). After Poland the Germans will have all the bad weather turns to turn around and stomp them into the bogs costing the British some of their very few land units and weakening the defence of France. As the German I'd be happy to trade a few convoys for Gort. And in Holland its seems to me there's even less to gain what am I missing?

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: ItBurns

Ok, its been a long time since I played but I'm confused as to why the British would want to land units in either Denmark or the Netherlands (with a neutral Belgium). After Poland the Germans will have all the bad weather turns to turn around and stomp them into the bogs costing the British some of their very few land units and weakening the defence of France. As the German I'd be happy to trade a few convoys for Gort. And in Holland its seems to me there's even less to gain what am I missing?

It's not so easy to attack the Brits in Holland because they can occupy Rotterdam or worse Amsterdam, it's city hexes and the brits can do defensive shore bombardment with the Royal Navy. Rotterdam can be attacked from 4 hexes, 2 of them with rivers, Amsterdam is worse, 3 hexes, one with a river, the other with a canal.

The brits don't have to send a HQ, Holland is not a major power's home nation, but it's true what they send to Holland are not sent to France.

[composer99]

If the British land in Denmark and occupy the island up north (where Frederikshavn is) it can be a real pain to dislodge them.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Ok, thanks.

Although I saw that PeskPesk wrote CP (and I guessed it means convoy), the image is too similar to a troop transport, although in the game counter themselves they are easily differentiable.

Denmark is one of the few countries where the white square in the upper left corner isn't obvious. Most of the time, that is the best indicator for a Convoy. They also all have a defensive factor of 10, movement and range of 3, and zeroes elsewhere.

The naval transports all contain the word 'Transport'.

[Extraneous]

To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

 
 
Denmark has no factories so taking Copenhagen will cause incomplete conquest at the end of the turn. This will force the CW out of Denmark.

[sajbalk]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Denmark has no factories so taking Copenhagen will cause incomplete conquest at the end of the turn. This will force the CW out of Denmark.

You are correct that taking Copenhagen will cause conquest. However, this conquest is complete becuase Denmark has no aligned minor countries. (Iceland and Greenland are territories).

You are incorrect as to the removal of CW forces. Because the CW is at war with the conqueror of Denmark (Germany), the CW forces need not leave Denmark upon its conquest.

See 13.7.1, "All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in unless they are at war with the conqueror."

CW forces in Fredrikshavn is a pain for Germany at this stage of the game.

[lavisj]

Well, I have now tested the British in Frederickshaven in 5 games. Four of which I did it myself, and in the fifth, my CW ally. The results have been widely different depending mostly on the German reaction. The best case saw the liberation (albeit temporary of Copenhagen).

But it seems to be really highly dependent on how the German player react. Here is how the games went down depending on German actions.
1. Minimal German reaction: the germans just sent troops to keep the CW units bottled up in Frederickshaven. It was disastrous because it resulted in the sinking of all german CP's in the Baltic and the loss of the Swedish ressources to Germany for most of the game. The British stayed there the whole game and eventually retook Copenhagen in 43.

2. Small initial german reaction. The german initially send small amount of forces. The British used the fact to push into Jutland and eventually retook Copenhagen (ok, some luck was invovled). The Germans then had to send large reinforcements to retake Copenhagen and push the British to Frederickshaven. It was eventually done, but not before MJ40 which did delay the French campaign a bit and allowed the French to last longer until ND if I remember correctly.

3. Strong Initial German Reaction. If the German rails a significan amount of units in SO (HQ and ARM) then Frederickshaven being a blitzable hex can not really be held (but then we do not play with Defensive Shore Bombardment) and it resulted in the evacuation of the BEF from Denmark during the winter. IN half those cases the german lost a unit when the CW Blitzed Frederickshaven.

This is my experience. The german can easily force the CW out, but they need to do it immediately and send as much force as possible. The CW will then have to decide wether to accept the confrontation, but I do not think it is worthy for them. It becomes bad if German ignores it, or just go at it in a mild way.

Of course for the CW to have troops in Denmark in 1940 means that they are very, very weak somewhere else... typically the Med as their troops will be split between France and Denmark.

Just my 2 cents.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lavisj
Of course for the CW to have troops in Denmark in 1940 means that they are very, very weak somewhere else... typically the Med as their troops will be split between France and Denmark.

This is where it lies IMO.
An active Italy can be a pain for the CW, overstretched in 1940 / 1941. Italy have the potential to conquer a lot if the CW is too busy being a pain to the German.

[ItBurns]

ORIGINAL: lavisj

Well, I have now tested the British in Frederickshaven in 5 games. Four of which I did it myself, and in the fifth, my CW ally. The results have been widely different depending mostly on the German reaction. The best case saw the liberation (albeit temporary of Copenhagen).

But it seems to be really highly dependent on how the German player react. Here is how the games went down depending on German actions.
1. Minimal German reaction: the germans just sent troops to keep the CW units bottled up in Frederickshaven. It was disastrous because it resulted in the sinking of all german CP's in the Baltic and the loss of the Swedish ressources to Germany for most of the game. The British stayed there the whole game and eventually retook Copenhagen in 43.

2. Small initial german reaction. The german initially send small amount of forces. The British used the fact to push into Jutland and eventually retook Copenhagen (ok, some luck was invovled). The Germans then had to send large reinforcements to retake Copenhagen and push the British to Frederickshaven. It was eventually done, but not before MJ40 which did delay the French campaign a bit and allowed the French to last longer until ND if I remember correctly.

3. Strong Initial German Reaction. If the German rails a significan amount of units in SO (HQ and ARM) then Frederickshaven being a blitzable hex can not really be held (but then we do not play with Defensive Shore Bombardment) and it resulted in the evacuation of the BEF from Denmark during the winter. IN half those cases the german lost a unit when the CW Blitzed Frederickshaven.

This is my experience. The german can easily force the CW out, but they need to do it immediately and send as much force as possible. The CW will then have to decide wether to accept the confrontation, but I do not think it is worthy for them. It becomes bad if German ignores it, or just go at it in a mild way.

Of course for the CW to have troops in Denmark in 1940 means that they are very, very weak somewhere else... typically the Med as their troops will be split between France and Denmark.

Just my 2 cents.

Well my point was that option 3 would be fairly easy for the Germans to do in Denmark and still have the time to turn around and assault France on time. I'd certainly react strongly to a British presence in Denmark.

As for Holland yes I see it could be a pain in the butt to drive them out if using the optional ships defensive bombardment rule but its still possible and again you have time to do it before the main show.

These AAR's are very interesting to me because they show me the little gamey tactics that seem to be common at the beginning of the game.

1. I never would have thought of the Baltic as in danger of being raided.
2. I never considered that one Brit plane with surprise on its side could do so much damage and it would have been worse if the whole fleet was together as I normally do.
3. I would have been stingy and cautious with the few land units the British start with and never would have considered putting them in harms way in Denmark or the Netherlands.

I get the feeling I get whooped pretty badly if I played any of you guys.

[Joseignacio]

Thxs, Steve.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: lavisj

Well, I have now tested the British in Frederickshaven in 5 games. Four of which I did it myself, and in the fifth, my CW ally. The results have been widely different depending mostly on the German reaction. The best case saw the liberation (albeit temporary of Copenhagen).

But it seems to be really highly dependent on how the German player react. Here is how the games went down depending on German actions.
1. Minimal German reaction: the germans just sent troops to keep the CW units bottled up in Frederickshaven. It was disastrous because it resulted in the sinking of all german CP's in the Baltic and the loss of the Swedish ressources to Germany for most of the game. The British stayed there the whole game and eventually retook Copenhagen in 43.

...

Just my 2 cents.

How was this possible? Of course, British ships cannot cross from North sea to Baltic sea even through Frederickshaven. I can only imagine it was done through naval bombers or sacrificing fleet before the strait was closed.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: lavisj

Well, I have now tested the British in Frederickshaven in 5 games. Four of which I did it myself, and in the fifth, my CW ally. The results have been widely different depending mostly on the German reaction. The best case saw the liberation (albeit temporary of Copenhagen).

But it seems to be really highly dependent on how the German player react. Here is how the games went down depending on German actions.
1. Minimal German reaction: the germans just sent troops to keep the CW units bottled up in Frederickshaven. It was disastrous because it resulted in the sinking of all german CP's in the Baltic and the loss of the Swedish ressources to Germany for most of the game. The British stayed there the whole game and eventually retook Copenhagen in 43.

...

Just my 2 cents.

How was this possible? Of course, British ships cannot cross from North sea to Baltic sea even through Frederickshaven. I can only imagine it was done through naval bombers or sacrificing fleet before the strait was closed.

They can base ships out of Frederickshaven that can sail into the Baltic and also the top of Denmark is much superior for basing NAVs and FTRs that can contest the Baltic.

[Jagdtiger14]

If I'm the Axis and CW wants to screw with me in Denmark...PLEASE bring it on!!! In our early years of WiF we toyed with the idea of taking Fredrickshaven, but it really was not worth the investment. Germany can make it to Copenhagen and conquer Denmark, and can also put a corp nearby to stop any CW advance. CW does not have the units to conduct operations in Denmark AND the units required to assist France, AND defend itself vs Italy. If CW has extra units to play with they should go to France/Belgium...including Gort. Germany can put weak stuff up there so as to not distract from other important operations. If the CW is still there later on, they can be eliminated.

The French ships(should be subs) in the Baltic is one of the negative gamey things about WiF, but is a good move for the Allies even if they die at the end of the turn.
C

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If I'm the Axis and CW wants to screw with me in Denmark...PLEASE bring it on!!! In our early years of WiF we toyed with the idea of taking Fredrickshaven, but it really was not worth the investment. Germany can make it to Copenhagen and conquer Denmark, and can also put a corp nearby to stop any CW advance. CW does not have the units to conduct operations in Denmark AND the units required to assist France, AND defend itself vs Italy. If CW has extra units to play with they should go to France/Belgium...including Gort. Germany can put weak stuff up there so as to not distract from other important operations. If the CW is still there later on, they can be eliminated.

The French ships(should be subs) in the Baltic is one of the negative gamey things about WiF, but is a good move for the Allies even if they die at the end of the turn.
C

The Allied threat with Frederickhaven is to send naval units into the Baltic. How long can the Germans stand to lose 3 or 4 resources per turn?

[brian brian]

The CW can build lots of 2 point Infantry units and meet their commitments around the globe. And as soon as the weather goes bad, they can base out of Frederikshavn and the Germans really have to work hard to remove them. When the sun comes out or shortly before they can evacuate if the Germans threaten them. Meanwhile they can attrition the German naval assets in the Baltic. Winnie would be proud.

[Jagdtiger14]

Well, its 3 resources, and in 1939/40 that's 2.25/3? BP's. I'm ok with losing those BP's in S/O'39 if I get continuous good weather(I tend to go two thirds Fall Gelb...so WAllies are under pressure immediately if the weather opportunity is there). If the weather turns worse than rain, the Kreigsmarine can take a naval and sail out(4, 1 and zero boxes) into the Baltic with cp's...so its unlikely the WAllies can do much unless they want to risk losing too many assets when the Baltic closes. N/D'39, and J/F'40 weather is expected to be very bad at some point during the turn, if not, then good for me in Belgium/France and I'll be ok with losing the BP's if the WAllies overcome my convoy protection. I expect to get those BP's N/D'39/J/F'40 since there should be bad weather and the Kriegsmarine is more powerful than anything the WAllies can throw at it in the Baltic. In M/A'40 there is also a likelyhood of bad weather at some point, if not then I keep making gains on the main front and happily lose the BP's(if the WAllies overcome the convoy protection) in exchange of an entire turns worth of fair or rain weather. Remember, every turn I send out SCS's into the Baltic I am sending them to the 4 box, 1 box, and zero box...at the end of each turn during the end of turn re-base...the 4 box assets move to the 3 box, the 1 box moves to the zero box(for next turn cp protection), and the zero box SCS's go home. I will also hold back a crappy 3pt FTR that can react into the zero box if weather permits. My style Fall Gelb is meant to keep Germany on a M/J(no later than J/A) scheduled capture of Paris. If turn ends, initiatives, and weather rolls really continually screw me, then S/O'40. With average luck, I expect to take out France by the end of M/J'40. At that point I am free to take a naval action. If France survives, then I keep taking the BP hit if the WAllies can deal with the Kreigsmarine...either way, the WAllies are also losing naval assets to combat actions in the Baltic. After France falls I crush anything in Fredrickshaven, and the WAllies better not have anything in the Baltic or it dies at end turn. If they want to send NAV's and FTR's, then those are fewer FTR's I need to deal with in France. France is the primary objective, not the 2.25/3BP's. Of course BP's are VERY important in this game, but sometimes players lose sight of more important issues such as: 1. Time, and 2. Strategic positions/objectives.
C

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If I'm the Axis and CW wants to screw with me in Denmark...PLEASE bring it on!!! In our early years of WiF we toyed with the idea of taking Fredrickshaven, but it really was not worth the investment. Germany can make it to Copenhagen and conquer Denmark, and can also put a corp nearby to stop any CW advance. CW does not have the units to conduct operations in Denmark AND the units required to assist France, AND defend itself vs Italy. If CW has extra units to play with they should go to France/Belgium...including Gort. Germany can put weak stuff up there so as to not distract from other important operations. If the CW is still there later on, they can be eliminated.

The French ships(should be subs) in the Baltic is one of the negative gamey things about WiF, but is a good move for the Allies even if they die at the end of the turn.
C

The Allied threat with Frederickhaven is to send naval units into the Baltic. How long can the Germans stand to lose 3 or 4 resources per turn?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Well, its 3 resources, and in 1939/40 that's 2.25/3? BP's. I'm ok with losing those BP's in S/O'39 if I get continuous good weather(I tend to go two thirds Fall Gelb...so WAllies are under pressure immediately if the weather opportunity is there). If the weather turns worse than rain, the Kreigsmarine can take a naval and sail out(4, 1 and zero boxes) into the Baltic with cp's...so its unlikely the WAllies can do much unless they want to risk losing too many assets when the Baltic closes. N/D'39, and J/F'40 weather is expected to be very bad at some point during the turn, if not, then good for me in Belgium/France and I'll be ok with losing the BP's if the WAllies overcome my convoy protection. I expect to get those BP's N/D'39/J/F'40 since there should be bad weather and the Kriegsmarine is more powerful than anything the WAllies can throw at it in the Baltic. In M/A'40 there is also a likelyhood of bad weather at some point, if not then I keep making gains on the main front and happily lose the BP's(if the WAllies overcome the convoy protection) in exchange of an entire turns worth of fair or rain weather. Remember, every turn I send out SCS's into the Baltic I am sending them to the 4 box, 1 box, and zero box...at the end of each turn during the end of turn re-base...the 4 box assets move to the 3 box, the 1 box moves to the zero box(for next turn cp protection), and the zero box SCS's go home. I will also hold back a crappy 3pt FTR that can react into the zero box if weather permits. My style Fall Gelb is meant to keep Germany on a M/J(no later than J/A) scheduled capture of Paris. If turn ends, initiatives, and weather rolls really continually screw me, then S/O'40. With average luck, I expect to take out France by the end of M/J'40. At that point I am free to take a naval action. If France survives, then I keep taking the BP hit if the WAllies can deal with the Kreigsmarine...either way, the WAllies are also losing naval assets to combat actions in the Baltic. After France falls I crush anything in Fredrickshaven, and the WAllies better not have anything in the Baltic or it dies at end turn. If they want to send NAV's and FTR's, then those are fewer FTR's I need to deal with in France. France is the primary objective, not the 2.25/3BP's. Of course BP's are VERY important in this game, but sometimes players lose sight of more important issues such as: 1. Time, and 2. Strategic positions/objectives.
C

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If I'm the Axis and CW wants to screw with me in Denmark...PLEASE bring it on!!! In our early years of WiF we toyed with the idea of taking Fredrickshaven, but it really was not worth the investment. Germany can make it to Copenhagen and conquer Denmark, and can also put a corp nearby to stop any CW advance. CW does not have the units to conduct operations in Denmark AND the units required to assist France, AND defend itself vs Italy. If CW has extra units to play with they should go to France/Belgium...including Gort. Germany can put weak stuff up there so as to not distract from other important operations. If the CW is still there later on, they can be eliminated.

The French ships(should be subs) in the Baltic is one of the negative gamey things about WiF, but is a good move for the Allies even if they die at the end of the turn.
C

The Allied threat with Frederickhaven is to send naval units into the Baltic. How long can the Germans stand to lose 3 or 4 resources per turn?

I agree wholeheartedly that time is vastly more important.

The 4th resource was from Finland, depending on how long Frederickshaven is allowed to linger.

[Jagdtiger14]

2pt infantry units may not be enough if the Axis want something bad enough. The CW will probably evacuate on their own rather than the Germans pressing hard since Germany is busy elsewhere and should not be taken off their main objective. Fredrickshaven is a minor port, so only 4 naval units can base from there. Obviously the WAllies could build on that by leaving assets in the Baltic at sea, and putting 4 more into Fredrickhaven and so on. At some point the CW has to consider how many SCS's it should keep in Baltic waters in case the Germans turn their attention to Fredrickshaven early, or the WAllies miscalculate the weather chances. If a juicy enough WAllies fleet is in the Baltic, German re-inforcements can set up in a way that can move north if weather permits. Its a very dangerous gamble for the WAllies. Attrition is a two way street, and depending on German game strategy(Barbarossa), may not mean much to the Germans and could be a help for the Italians. The great thing about WiF is that there is almost always a counter to something. Give and take. That is why it has playability over and over...it never gets old.
C

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The CW can build lots of 2 point Infantry units and meet their commitments around the globe. And as soon as the weather goes bad, they can base out of Frederikshavn and the Germans really have to work hard to remove them. When the sun comes out or shortly before they can evacuate if the Germans threaten them. Meanwhile they can attrition the German naval assets in the Baltic. Winnie would be proud.

[Jagdtiger14]

Unless I am mistaken, the Finnish resource comes to Germany when Germany is at war with USSR?  By then Fredrickshaven is secure for Germany...until of course much later in the game.

[brian brian]

when the enemy is reacting to your moves, that is in itself a small victory. I would gladly risk a couple UK MIL and perhaps an "R" class BB or two for several German CPs and any of the excellent German SCS you can damage, when they will most likely never be repaired, particularly if you have had some luck hunting for the ore convoys. If you are fighting them in the Baltic, they can't be out raiding in the Atlantic. I wouldn't burn through too many CW assets to do this though, but there is more to it than just the BP calculations, and I think it is worth some small risks. Playing with or without Defensive Shore Bombardment is an important part of the decision too. As the Germans, I just simply don't give the CW this option without them tangling with a powerful corps in Frederikshavn.