Early Invasion?

[Capt Cliff]

I heard or read some place that the German intervention into Greece cause Barbarossa to be postponed until June. This is an easy "what if" ... what if the Itie's didn't screw up? The invasion into Russia goes off on April 1st ... April Fools day!!!

[Joel Billings]

Yes and no. I've also heard that late spring rains lasted into June so the Germans would have only gained weeks at most. Of course two weeks in the summer of 41 is worth a lot.

[Stryder]

an alternative where the Soviets did not leave the "Stalin Line" defenses would be interesting too... what if they only set security/police troops into Poland and kept the bulk of their forces on the original borders... Air force would have been less vulnerable, major units would not have been caught by surprise and defenses would have been better as well.

[Joel Billings]

That could be very tough on the Germans, since the Soviets usually lose around 1 million men on or near the border.

[Stryder]

agreed! [:)] just was thinking of Soviet what-ifs... everyone thinks of the German ones..

other random what-ifs:

*How about no Stalin purge of the officers corp?
*What if the USSR was not surprised?
*What if USSR had not supplied so many raw materials to Germany in 1940-41?
*What if the Germans were not so evil and had befriended or at least tolerated ALL locals
that had been "liberated"... less partisans, more volunteers perhaps.

(I can't wait to play the actual 1941 scenario, no what-ifs)

[Shupov]

Or the ultimate Soviet what-if - On May 15, 1941 General Zhukov proposed a preemptive offensive against the Wehrmacht in Poland! Although initialed by Timoshenko, Stalin probably never saw it.

[Stryder]

Wow! i just read that same passage in When Titans Clashed (Glantz) tonight... funny! Stalin was so desperate to avoid war in 1941, I can't imagine he would have approved and the USSR could barely take out Finland so it would have been a poor offensive with the Red Army still not fully deployed to the new frontier.
The preemptive attack in spring of 1942 in the Kharkov area did not hurt the German 42 offensive much...may have helped since so many men and material were annihilated

[Shupov]

Agree - Zhukov's proposal was normal contingency planning.  Stalin had no mindset to attack Hitler.  Russia was still sending trainloads of raw materials to Germany the day the invasion started! 
 
It's still fascinating to think what Zhukov could have done with 23,000 tanks on offense!

[Stryder]

Absolutely!

the what-if game is a good diversion... what if Patton had not fallen into disgrace and was in Bradley's position for Normandy is a good one too..

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: jfarber

Absolutely!

the what-if game is a good diversion... what if Patton had not fallen into disgrace and was in Bradley's position for Normandy is a good one too..

Fate worked out well. IMO, Gen. Patton was much better as an army commander than he would have been as an army group commander. Can anybody really think he would have worked well under Monty?

[Capt Cliff]

Getting way off the topic there Gents ... Eastern Front not Western ...

Another if Japan declares war on Russia when Germany declares war on USA. That move by Hitler was so wonky ... why the hell did he do it?? [&:] The valiant Tuetonic knight comes to the aid of his ally, but not reciporcal!!! [X(]

[Endsieg]

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

The valiant Tuetonic knight comes to the aid of his ally, but not reciporcal!!! [X(]

i wont comment on Teutonic or reciprocal...internet typos are as common as the housefly, often just as annoying.
Still..., unless Cliff was being ironic, ...to equate Hitler with a valiant Teutonic knight coming to the aid of his ally seems beyond comic...i guess it was meant ironically...

[Shupov]

Typos or bad metaphors aside, I agree with the Captain. Hitler declaring war on the US is one of his most inexplicable acts. Germany certainly needed the Japanese to declare war on the Soviet Union but it was not to be. Perhaps it was a show of bravado (or panic?) in the face of the Soviet winter offensive then unfolding.

[Capt Cliff]

ORIGINAL: Endsieg

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

The valiant Tuetonic knight comes to the aid of his ally, but not reciporcal!!! [X(]

i wont comment on Teutonic or reciprocal...internet typos are as common as the housefly, often just as annoying.
Still..., unless Cliff was being ironic, ...to equate Hitler with a valiant Teutonic knight coming to the aid of his ally seems beyond comic...i guess it was meant ironically...

In his minds eye "he" thought he was!! Oh an the Teutonic Knights were not ALL that good ... hunting down peasants in the Baltic states for sport or to cleans the world of vermin was quite common.