Japanese airframe production

[vonSchnitter]

@ Mike Solli - thanks for the confirmation ! So it is not my toothpaste ...

@ Kitakami - that is exactly how I read this as well.
The problem is, that the H-6 situation is - to my lights - not in line with the rest of the rather "interesting" ideas of IJ AC production issues.

I do not have any other sources than "wiki" - for what it is worth - but an earlier date for the H-6 would add a couple of interesting "twists" to the Gordian Knot of the IJ AC production problem.

[vonSchnitter]

Allright - almost there ....

here is the .xls for the IJA
IJA AC Chart

and here is a combined file for both IJN and IJA.
All IJ AC Comparison chart

Even though I offer these files as I get them readied - which means I have very little prior time to look really close - my impression of the IJ AC production system so far can be summarized in one expression: booby-trapped. Of course, this is more of a gut-feeling going by numbers, than much of playing and testing.

My apologies to readers/contributors to this thread so far. If you think I do keep batting without regard to balls flying - even those going in my direction - you are probably right.
But consider: When I started the thread I was as naive as anyone else - or even more so, sometimes the yourney is worthwhile the effort alone. My goal was to dig the numbers before going to conclusions - which in turn may be worth evaluation by game moves. And this turned out to be more envolved than I thought ....

I just hope you concur at this point of time with my approach - till more sophisticated tools become available.

If credit is due for digging the data, it goes to witpstaff and the good souls running this show. I just extracted and edited what the util had to offer.

One more thing to do:

Engine production.

[Mike Solli]

What do you mean "booby-trapped"?

[vonSchnitter]

Hi Mike,

two excamples:

Helen:
One mark of the Helen gets MAD - the only one in the IJA menagerie
And the the Helen transport is by far the best by load and range in all the IJA transports
But: the Helen needs engines ....


Tojo:

no production, no groups ariving

But: available before Tony - and competing for existing engines (oscar) while the Tony uses a different production line.

Just the more obvious.

[vonSchnitter]

well of course - booby trap may be a little strong.

But which of the choices do you prefer:

A German Dachshund having a go at your ancles

Or a German Shepard aiming for your butts.

And of course, you never know if both go for more "vital" parts of your male anatonomy eventually -

without testing there is no way of knowing.


[:D]

[Mike Solli]

Gotcha. [:D]

[Mynok]

Guess that one good thing about small dogs. [:'(]

[Mike Solli]

Have you guys looked at the volumes of reinforcement aircraft we're going to get?  I thought I heard that more airframe factories come online during the game but am not sure.  I asked in the Economics thread.  If not, those air factories are going to have to be huge to have the pool required to fill them out, along with losses. A few examples of reinforcements coming:
 
Ki-43-IIa - 383
D3A2 - 345
Ki-27b - 252
A6M2 - 936
 
Yeah, I know, we don't need to be able to fill them out with that aircraft.  We can just upgrade after the unit shows up.  But we need to have some type of aircraft in the pool to upgrade them to.  Something is going to have to be expanded dramatically.  This is crazy.

[USSAmerica]

You guys are busier than a bunch of accountants on April 14th.  [:D]

[Mike Solli]

LOL [:D]

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: USS America

You guys are busier than a bunch of accountants on April 14th.  [:D]

ROFL!!!
Yes... we are

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Even though I offer these files as I get them readied - which means I have very little prior time to look really close - my impression of the IJ AC production system so far can be summarized in one expression: booby-trapped. Of course, this is more of a gut-feeling going by numbers, than much of playing and testing.

After much thought, I agree. Consider this, for example: since for most planes there is only one factory, at least at start, when strategic bombing starts against the Home Islands... what airframes do we want to have the largest number of individual factories producing them? There are critical plane types (fighters?) for which I'd hate to depend on only one factory. If the factory gets bombed to pieces... no more planes [:-] And the northernmost factories begin to look more important as the war goes on... not as easy to get within bombing range of them...

Regarding the Helen and the Tojo yes, those are important decisions. The Tojo's initial lack of armor and the availability of armored Helen bombers is what I have been thinking about lately. Not decided yet, but armor used to mean pilot survival... we need to know if it still does.

[vonSchnitter]

Haha Mike !

Where does your concern about barkers and biters leaves ye, mate ? [:'(]

If you have any concern for your privates left - considering the age of contributors on this forum (just my conception, no reflection on your abilities) - or the use of concern beyond wargaming of some body parts with a measure of success - one way or the other- may get ye .. or whatever

I would appreciate your help !!!

Care to help out with the engines production table ? Just for proofreading - it is a bastard.

Woof [:D]

[Q-Ball]

Question: Do reinforcement units still come with "free" pilots, like in WITP? Or does AE pull them out of the pilot pool?

This is important, because if it's like WITP, you definitely want a full complement of A/C available in order to get your free pilots.

16.2.2 implies it's still like WITP, though that's not 100% for certain, and it's not clear what experience levels you can expect.

[vonSchnitter]

@ USS Amerika !

if things depend on it, you better start counting beans quick, real quick. Unless you are a partial to venting off your disappointmet to keep the shepart in check ....

However, going by past experience, the AC etc production system is not the most pressing part of the Japanese resource management.

Building ships (IJN or transports of any description) is the real drain.

But the player may have the most (apparent) influence by way of the air-production thing.

Mabe I will have a close look at this subsystem later ...

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Question: Do reinforcement units still come with "free" pilots, like in WITP? Or does AE pull them out of the pilot pool?

This is important, because if it's like WITP, you definitely want a full complement of A/C available in order to get your free pilots.

16.2.2 implies it's still like WITP, though that's not 100% for certain, and it's not clear what experience levels you can expect.

No more free pilots. That's why the pilot pool starts out so large. Everything comes from there.

[seydlitz_slith]

I feel pretty sure that the Mabel is the way to go on Torpedo bombers instead of Kates. The performance is about the same (better cruise in fact) and it uses the HA-33 engine (Same as the Nell, Mavis, and Val) instead of the HA-35 (Kate, Zero, Lily, Tojo, Irving, and many of the critical types). If I can pull some of the critical demand off of the HA-35 factory without giving up performance, then that seems to be the sensible thing to do.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Thanks for the Kamikaze info.

I had a rather close look at the production of AC as is at the beginning up the end of 43.
So far all available AC during this time either have an R&D plant going or produktion will switch from an older model to the new one.

Few exceptions to this rule exist.

a) Kate - there is one factory with no produktion (Hiroshima). In case of expansion, switch the factory from B5N1 to B5N2, since here is no automatic upgrade.
b) E15K1 Norm - a floatplane. Better range than Jake, better performance in general - however the Jake gets radar eventually. No units spawn with the Norm.
c) Nate factories will not autoupgrade.
d) No production of Tojos whatsoever, without changing things. And no airgroups coming equipped with them. However Nate/Oscar groups can convert to Tojo.
e) Helen 1a (future MAD) will autoconvert to newer model (not MAD capable)
f) Out of production models (like Claude) can be reintroduced - they got dumped in WitP at the same turn. I am not sure if this is true for all models.

Thanks to both Historiker and vonSchnitter

Since there are not many factories we can just freely switch production in without stopping production of other models, thinking long and hard about this before turn one has become very, very important. A few thoughts (which are not necessarily the best way of doing things, but they may start a good discussion):

- A6M2 Zero production now upgrades to A6M2 Sen Baku, in 2/44... this will have to be changed manually to something better than Zeros before then. The questions are when, and to what?
- A6M3 Zero is not carrirer-capable. Yet, it may play an important part... how many should we produce per month? It does convert to A6M3a in 12/42, which is carrier-capable.
- B5N2 Kate... 32 per month I guess.
- There is no factory building C5M2 Babs... should we convert one? This plane does not convert automatically to anything.
- D3A1 Val production does convert automatically to D3A2, which in turn converts to D5Y1 in 11/45. Should this be manually converted to D4Y1 production in 4/43?
- I am considering keeping E13A1/1b production until the end of the war, instead of going with E15K1.
- F1M2 Pete is not a bad plane for point-defense in the beggining stages of the war. Later it may need to be phased out, but unescorted Brittish and Dutch bombers might get a nasty surprise once in a while.
- Should we continue G3M2 Nell production, or should we switch production to G4M1 Betty and, if so, when? It upgrades automatically to the G3M3 Nell in 5/42, which dies have radar, whereas the Betty gets radar only in 6/44, with the G4M2a model.
- The H6K5 Mavis has radar in 6/42. The H8K2 Emily gets radar in 3/43. The Emily is the better plane, so the question is... how important is radar?
- The J2M2 Jack is armored, and it appears in 9/43, earlier than the armored A6Mx models. The N1K1-J George appears in 9/43, and it is also armored. My thinking at this point is to choose only one for serious deployment.
- The P1Y1 Frances is armored, and appears in 11/43, one year before the G4M3a gets armor. How many units should field this plane?

Did not get into IJA planes, but please let me know what you all think about any/all of the above

Thx to all three of you

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Question: Do reinforcement units still come with "free" pilots, like in WITP? Or does AE pull them out of the pilot pool?

This is important, because if it's like WITP, you definitely want a full complement of A/C available in order to get your free pilots.

16.2.2 implies it's still like WITP, though that's not 100% for certain, and it's not clear what experience levels you can expect.

No more free pilots. That's why the pilot pool starts out so large. Everything comes from there.

Then honestly there is no reason to keep producing hordes of outdated aircraft into the late war years. If you only have 9, bring it in with 9, convert it to something good and build up from there.

[Mynok]

Andrew Brown just confirmed that no new factories appear. [X(][X(][X(][X(]

That means that factory expansion will have to be calculated for in supply usage projections. Frankly, I foresee a lot of groups getting stuck in Organizing (I assume they still do?) before arriving.

[Local Yokel]

Just posted something on airframe production in the economy thread; my bad for not putting it in here [:o].

It's a bit of an old chestnut that has been addressed before, but the Model 32 Zero (A6M3) was carrier capable. An example can be seen departing the pointy end of Zuikaku in film footage said to have been shot at Santa Cruz. Hope this gets picked up and corrected in the scenario one data.