Surface combat bias ?

[John Lansford]

I've noticed that retreating TF's, if they've still got some move capability left, often react right back into the same combat.  I've got PT boats at Tawi Tawi that I send to Jolo to hit the transport TF's based there; when they retreat they retreat EAST, then move right back into Jolo, often meet the same TF, retreat back EAST, and end up with all their movement gone and at least 3 hexes from Tawi Tawi.  I've seen this happen with larger ships as well.  It's as if whatever toggle exists for retreating TF's that says 'withdraw towards base' isn't being turned on, and it appears that as long as they've got ammo they'll keep getting into fights even if the ships are already shot up.

[wpurdom]

In digging around as to why - one reason that is standing out is the US 5"/38 which has an accuracy of 200 versus a similar Japanese weapon the 5"/50 3YT with accuracy 80. These WITP stock numbers are replicated in AE. Evening out these accuracies seems to go a long way towards redressing the "bias" for both WITP and AE. Can't this this is the only issue but in testing it seems to be the first one that makes a significant difference.

One thing that does NOT seem to impact surface combat much in either stock WITP or AE is the crew experience - I've tried adjusting that up and down - and within any rational range of experience difference there is little to no impact. Experience would NOT be a "high leverage" factor for Naval Combat (unlike Air Combat - where experience is a key factor).

Addressing the accuracy of the weapons is no more important than giving more importance to nighttime experience in nighttime battle. We're missing the "What was that?" "Where am I?" effect of night battle when we don't weight crew experience (TF experience was also very important - but I don't think it's practical to deal with in AE - forces with some training together did lots better, in my impression). If you look at the Med in WWII, I think it's clear that if you exchange crews and co's, the Italians beat the Brits. Similarly for the experience in the Pacific up until 1943 - experience makes a huge difference.

Spotting wasn't the only factor. Before 1943, the Japs did much better in reacting after they were surprised. They had experience and doctrine, got off torpedoes, manuevered, reloaded and reorganized quickly.

Proposal - for nightime fighting only, in addition to the other effects of experience, try making nightime experience a multiple on the accuracy of both gunfire and torpedoes - so if a crew has a 40 nightime rating their accuracy is reduced by 60%.

Here is a summary of Morrison's accounts of the surface naval battles in the Dutch Indies - lots of confusion and inaccuracy!

Battle of Balikpapan - 4 US DD’s surprise 12 Japanese transports at anchor. They apparently evade a distinct pciket DD. The close in ASW cover is 3 PC’s and 1 AM. The US ships with an uninterrupted opportunity to enter the middle of the Japanese formation and fire all their torpedoes sink 3 transports and a PC with torpedoes with no substantial damage done with gunfire. A Netherlands sub sinks another transport. The Japanese DD covering force heads out into the Gulf to look for subs rather than closing with the transports to protect them.
Badung Strait - 1st phase De Ruyter, Java, 5 Dutch DD’s and 2 US DD’s attack 2 Jap DD’s and a transport. Dutch DD runs aground. A Jap DD and Dutch CL exchange gunfire at point-blank ground with no hits. Transport hit by torpedoes and gunfire and a Dutch DD is sunk by torpedoes. Ineffective exchange of gunfire between DD’s followed by Jap DD’s attacking each other.
2nd phase Tromp and 4 US DD’s attack, DD Stewart hit by gunfire with superficial damage, CL exchanges gunfire with Jap DD’s, one superficial hit on Oshio, several hits on Tromp. 2 reinforcing Jap DD’s arrive and 4 US DD’s attack Michishio with gunfire leaving it dead in the water with 96 casualties - it survives.
Java (daytime) Nachi, Haguro, Jintsu & 7 DD’s v. Houston, Exeter, Java, De Ruyter, Perth, 5 US, 3 Br. and 3 Dutch DD’s - long range gunfire (more than an hour) and long-range torpedo launches until Exeter takes a critical hit which cuts her speed in half and breaks up the column - results in Dutch DD being sunk by a long-range torpedo spread. Close in fighting among lighter ships follows as Allied heavies break off and Brit DD is sunk by gunfire.
(Nightime) close-in exchange of gunfire results in sinking of two Dutch CL’s with no damage to Jap fleet, British DD sunk by torpedo or mine before general action.

[DrewMatrix]

Here is my most recent surface battle (ie not chosen for any reason other than it occured this turn):
 
Day Time Surface Combat, near Manado at 77,100 (Allied TF was on react. mid ocean, daytime), Range 20,000 Yards
 
Japanese Ships
      BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 14
      CL Yubari
      DD Mutsuki, Shell hits 4,  heavy fires
      DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 12,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
Results
................Sy-Fl-En-FI
Yamashiro...04-02-02-02 Shell hits 14
Yubari........00-00-00-00
Mutsuki......44-38-18-04 Shell hits 4,  heavy fires
Kisaragi......Sunk  heavy fires,  heavy damage

 
Allied Ships
      CL De Ruyter, Shell hits 11,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
      CL Tromp, Shell hits 2
      DD Alden, Shell hits 1
      DD Edsall
      DD John D. Edwards
      DD Whipple, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
      DD Banckert
      DD Witte de With, Shell hits 2,  heavy fires
      DD Kortenaer
      DD Piet Hein
 
Results
.................Sy-Fl-En-FI
De Ruyter....63-73-35-99 Shell hits 11,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
Tromp ........03-03-00-00 Shell hits 2
Alden..........04-00-01-00 Shell hits 1
Edsall..........00-00-00-00
JD. Edwards.00-00-00-00
Whipple.......Sunk Shell hits 2
Banckert......00-00-00-00
Wte de With.23-30-27-00 Shell hits 2,  heavy fires
Kortenaer.....00-00-00-00
Piet Hein......00-00-00-00
 
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 20,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 20,000 yards
Closed to 8,000 yards, then opened to 13,000 then closed again to 9,000 then opened to 20,000 (no more combat) and disengaged. Torpedoes fired but no torp hits
The damage values are taken by opening the autosave after the battle so they are not affected by Fog of War, and they include any preexisting minor damage and any repairs that occurred that turn. De Ruyter looks sure to sink, making the initial odds
 
IJ BB, CL 2xDD
Al 2xCL 8xDD
and results
 
IJ lose 1 DD
Al lose 1 CL, 1 DD
 
That all looks very reasonable to me

[jimh009]

I didn't have much luck with a surface warfare TF against the Japs BB TF, either...Houston was sunk as was a DD, although the allies did sink a DD and damage a cruiser. Soooo much of surface warfare at nighttime revolves around that "random" thing...it really can go down any which way. If one side or the other gets surprise, the results will likely be very different than expected!

[jimh009]

surprised by two different cruiser TFs, then retreated SOUTH?!?!

Needless to say, they were destroyed by the carrier planes. Time to rethink surface combat tactics as Japanese for sure.




I've run that about ten times now, and results are like you said. Usually japanese cruisers are surprised, and are hammered by the allies. It seems that japanese ships don't know how to use those guns or torpedoes. And that retreating does not work. Sometimes japanese ships just don't retreat at all, or they retreat a few hexes south and US CV planes destroy them. Yesterday I tried to run fast transport TF of 2 CLs to Tassafaronga. There was allied TF (2 AKs and 2 DD) unloading troops, so my TF retreated to Tulagi(??), which is US base now...

So please, can somebody tell me how the retreating works, or does it work at all?

This can happen to the allies too, though...it's not just a Jap problem. Several times I've had PT boats and one surface TF retreat the wrong direction...away from their home base.

On the other hand, I try to keep an open mind about this. Is there any surefire guarantee in real life that a surface TF that tries to retreat will always be able to retreat directly toward home? Following a surface fight, the ships could very well be in a completely different orientation than before the fight started...with the "victor" standing between the "vanquished" and the home base of the vanquished. Thus, the vanquished would have to take a detour, perhaps even a wide one, to get away from the victorious task force.

Whether or not this is happening in AE too much, I won't comment. But I certainly can see how this would happen in real life.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: jimh009
On the other hand, I try to keep an open mind about this. Is there any surefire guarantee in real life that a surface TF that tries to retreat will always be able to retreat directly toward home? Following a surface fight, the ships could very well be in a completely different orientation than before the fight started...with the "victor" standing between the "vanquished" and the home base of the vanquished.

This more or less happened at Jutland...

[AttuWatcher]

ORIGINAL: jimh009
Whether or not this is happening in AE too much, I won't comment. But I certainly can see how this would happen in real life.

Is this actually simulated in AE or figment of imagination?[&:]

[Scott_USN]

I ran this 6 times just to see what would happen and pretty much the same results each time.

The KB just seemed to be in the right spot at the right time so I thought I would see for myself the Doomsday Allied Fleets at work... after 40 mins or so I was a bit bored. Not that I would do this in my game of course, mostly because simple fact is if you don't kill the CV's they will KILL YOU after the surface fight.

But anyway each fight is pretty much the same give or take a hit and I did score a hit on the Akagi 5 times with same results... nothing.

I suppose I should have wiped them out and been drinking tea by noon...


Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 25,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
     CV Kaga
     CV Shokaku
     CV Zuikaku
     CV Akagi, Shell hits 1
     BB Kongo, Shell hits 3
     BB Haruna, Shell hits 3,  on fire
     CA Chikuma, Shell hits 2
     CA Chokai
     CA Nachi, Shell hits 1
     CL Tama, Shell hits 6,  on fire
     DD Hagikaze
     DD Arashio
     DD Minegumo
     DD Akatsuki
     DD Ikazuchi
     DD Yakaze, Shell hits 1
     DD Tatsukaze, Shell hits 1,  on fire
     DD Kyukaze

Allied Ships
     BB Revenge, Shell hits 6
     BB Royal Sovereign, Shell hits 8
     BB Ramilles, Shell hits 1
     BB Resolution, Shell hits 3,  on fire
     CA Dorsetshire, Shell hits 3,  on fire
     CA Cornwall
     CA Exeter, Shell hits 3,  on fire
     CL Enterprise
     CL Emerald, Shell hits 1
     CL Dauntless, Shell hits 1
     CL Capetown, Shell hits 3
     DD Isaac Sweers, Shell hits 1,  on fire
     DD Tjerk Hiddes
     DD Hotspur, Shell hits 1
     DD Nizam



Reduced visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 29,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 30,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 25,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages CV Kaga at 25,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Royal Sovereign at 25,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CA Exeter at 25,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Tatsukaze at 25,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Minegumo at 25,000 yards
Range closes to 22,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Kongo at 22,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages BB Haruna at 22,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 22,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Royal Sovereign at 22,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Cornwall at 22,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Nachi at 22,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Dorsetshire at 22,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CA Dorsetshire at 22,000 yards
CL Enterprise engages CA Nachi at 22,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Arashio at 22,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 18,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 18,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Royal Sovereign at 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 18,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 18,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 18,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Nachi at 18,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CA Nachi at 18,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CA Dorsetshire at 18,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages DD Yakaze at 18,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages BB Royal Sovereign at 18,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Minegumo at 18,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Nizam at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Kongo at 16,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 16,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Royal Sovereign at 16,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 16,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CA Exeter at 16,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Cornwall at 16,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Dauntless at 16,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CL Tama at 16,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Dauntless at 16,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Emerald at 16,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Enterprise at 16,000 yards
DD Tatsukaze engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 16,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Tjerk Hiddes at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 13,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Resolution at 13,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Haruna at 13,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CA Exeter at 13,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages BB Kongo at 13,000 yards
CL Tama engages CA Dorsetshire at 13,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Capetown at 13,000 yards
CA Exeter engages CA Chikuma at 13,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Chokai at 13,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Kyukaze at 13,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Hotspur at 13,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Minegumo at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Ramilles at 11,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CA Exeter at 11,000 yards
CA Cornwall engages CL Tama at 11,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Nachi at 11,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Capetown at 11,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Capetown at 11,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Emerald at 11,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages DD Kyukaze at 11,000 yards
DD Tatsukaze engages DD Nizam at 11,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Hotspur at 11,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Hotspur at 11,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Akatsuki at 11,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Minegumo at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Royal Sovereign at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 8,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CA Exeter at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CA Cornwall at 8,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Nachi at 8,000 yards
CL Capetown engages CL Tama at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Dauntless at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Capetown at 8,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Enterprise at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Nizam at 8,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Nizam at 8,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Hotspur at 8,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages DD Hagikaze at 8,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Hotspur at 8,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Hagikaze at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
DD Nizam engages CV Akagi at 13,000 yards
BB Revenge engages CV Zuikaku at 13,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages CV Shokaku at 13,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CV Kaga at 13,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CA Exeter at 13,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 13,000 yards
CA Dorsetshire engages CA Chikuma at 13,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Dorsetshire at 13,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CA Chikuma at 13,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Chokai at 13,000 yards
CL Tama engages CL Enterprise at 13,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Hotspur at 13,000 yards
DD Ikazuchi engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Akatsuki at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 16,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages CV Akagi at 16,000 yards
BB Revenge engages CV Zuikaku at 16,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Royal Sovereign at 16,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BB Revenge at 16,000 yards
CA Exeter engages CA Chokai at 16,000 yards
CL Tama engages CA Cornwall at 16,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CA Exeter at 16,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Capetown at 16,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CA Nachi at 16,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CL Tama at 16,000 yards
CA Chikuma engages CL Enterprise at 16,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Ikazuchi at 16,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Yakaze at 16,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes engages DD Ikazuchi at 16,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages DD Akatsuki at 16,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Nizam at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 20,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 20,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CV Zuikaku at 20,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages BB Kongo at 20,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Revenge at 20,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 20,000 yards
BB Revenge engages BB Kongo at 20,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Nachi at 20,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Capetown at 20,000 yards
CL Dauntless engages CA Nachi at 20,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Chikuma at 20,000 yards
CL Enterprise engages CA Chikuma at 20,000 yards
BB Resolution engages DD Yakaze at 20,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages DD Arashio at 20,000 yards
Range increases to 24,000 yards
BB Resolution engages BB Haruna at 24,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages CV Zuikaku at 24,000 yards
BB Resolution engages CV Kaga at 24,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Resolution at 24,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Cornwall at 24,000 yards
CA Nachi engages CL Enterprise at 24,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Enterprise at 24,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CL Dauntless at 24,000 yards
CL Emerald engages CA Nachi at 24,000 yards
CL Enterprise engages DD Kyukaze at 24,000 yards
BB Resolution engages DD Tatsukaze at 24,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages DD Yakaze at 24,000 yards
BB Royal Sovereign engages DD Ikazuchi at 24,000 yards
BB Ramilles engages DD Akatsuki at 24,000 yards
BB Revenge engages DD Arashio at 24,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[Scott_USN]

As for the Air complaints here was my follow up air attack, which is typical. Perhaps some people are just having bad luck or maybe I am having bad luck ?
 
 
Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 58
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      Blenheim IV x 37
      Hudson IIIa x 6
      Hurricane IIb Trop x 7
      B-17D Fortress x 3
 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Blenheim IV: 16 destroyed
      Hudson IIIa: 1 damaged
      Hurricane IIb Trop: 2 destroyed
      B-17D Fortress: 3 damaged
 
Japanese Ships
      CV Kaga
      CA Chokai
      CV Zuikaku
      CV Akagi
      CV Shokaku

[Scott_USN]

Here is what happens if you don't kill the CV's right after the surface fight

Morning Air attack on TF, near Koggala at 30,52

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
     A6M2 Zero x 5
     B5N2 Kate x 24
     D3A1 Val x 3



Japanese aircraft losses
     B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed, 12 damaged
     D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
     BB Ramilles, Bomb hits 1
     BB Royal Sovereign, Torpedo hits 5,  on fire,  heavy damage
     CA Dorsetshire, Torpedo hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     CL Dauntless
     CL Capetown, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
     BB Resolution,  on fire
     BB Revenge, Torpedo hits 1



Aircraft Attacking:
      3 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
              Naval Attack:  1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
     23 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
              Naval Attack:  1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo



And the Afternoon Attack

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Koggala at 30,52

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
B5N2 Kate x 30
D3A1 Val x 26



Allied aircraft
Sea Hurricane Ib x 8


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 14 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Sea Hurricane Ib: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Resolution, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ramilles, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
CA Cornwall
CL Dauntless, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1
CA Exeter



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
16 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
18 x D3A1 Val diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
9 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
No.880 Sqn FAA with Sea Hurricane Ib (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB Ramilles

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: jimh009
On the other hand, I try to keep an open mind about this. Is there any surefire guarantee in real life that a surface TF that tries to retreat will always be able to retreat directly toward home? Following a surface fight, the ships could very well be in a completely different orientation than before the fight started...with the "victor" standing between the "vanquished" and the home base of the vanquished.

This more or less happened at Jutland...

Well it certainly did not happen during Salomon campaing... Japanese always retreated north.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Well it certainly did not happen during Salomon campaing... Japanese always retreated north.

The point is it can happen, it's not like Scheer wanted to get cut off from his bases after all.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

I have been watching the AI V AI, and the surface combat more than anything is heavily biased in the USA's favour,

Well given what just happened to my US surface group just south of Davao, I'd say Japanese surface combats are performing just fine. First was the night engagement, which saw the CA Huston take 1 torpedo and 1 large caliber shell hit from the Hyuga and instantly sink. The other 5 hits were AAA gun hits from Hyuga's AAA mounts.

The fast sinking of the CA Huston tells me that ships might be a tad too vulnerable in AE. Sure the Huston would be in pretty bad shape, but baring a critical damage outcome (none reported), I'd think she should have stayed afloat after just 2 damage producing hits.

The next part of the fight was Unbelievably long, lasting 16 rounds! I didn't know ships had that much ammo available, but they kept shooting for all 16 rounds. How the fleets closed from 18k to 1k in daylight conditions with visibility maxed at 30k yards, eludes me. This may be a problem with the surface routines, as I can't think of any reason to justify such a close starting range in such good conditions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Dadjangas at 79,93, Range 1,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CA Mogami
DD Yakaze
DD Hokaze

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 1
CL Boise
DD Barker
DD Bulmer
DD Paul Jones
DD Parrott
DD Stewart



Reduced sighting due to 46% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 46% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Ishizaki, Noburu crosses the 'T'
BB Hyuga engages CA Houston at 1,000 yards
CL Boise engages CA Mogami at 1,000 yards
DD Hokaze engages CA Houston at 1,000 yards
CA Houston engages DD Yakaze at 1,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Parrott at 1,000 yards
DD Barker engages BB Hyuga at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CA Houston sunk by BB Hyuga at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Boise at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Parrott at 2,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 79,91, Range 1,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 53, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Mogami, Shell hits 3
DD Yakaze, Shell hits 1
DD Hokaze, Shell hits 19, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 8, heavy fires
CL Boise, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Barker, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Bulmer, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
DD Paul Jones, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Parrott, Shell hits 1
DD Stewart, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage



Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
Riker, K.I. crosses the 'T'
BB Hyuga engages CL Boise at 1,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages BB Hyuga at 1,000 yards
DD Hokaze sunk by CL Boise at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Boise at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 2,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Boise at 5,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Mogami at 5,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Stewart at 5,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Parrott at 5,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Paul Jones at 5,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Bulmer at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Boise at 7,000 yards
CA Mogami engages CL Boise at 7,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Bulmer at 7,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Parrott at 7,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Bulmer at 7,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Yakaze at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Boise at 11,000 yards
CL Boise sunk by CA Mogami at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Parrott at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Paul Jones at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Bulmer at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Barker at 11,000 yards
Ishizaki, Noburu orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range increases to 13,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Parrott at 13,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Stewart at 13,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Yakaze at 13,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Paul Jones at 13,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Bulmer at 13,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Barker at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
CA Mogami engages CL Marblehead at 10,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Barker at 10,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Paul Jones at 10,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Yakaze at 10,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Yakaze at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 6,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Stewart at 6,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Parrott at 6,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Paul Jones at 6,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Bulmer at 6,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Yakaze at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Stewart at 7,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Yakaze at 7,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages BB Hyuga at 7,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Yakaze at 7,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Stewart at 7,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Yakaze at 7,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Paul Jones at 7,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Yakaze at 7,000 yards
DD Barker engages BB Hyuga at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages CA Mogami at 8,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Stewart at 8,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Yakaze at 8,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Yakaze at 8,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Yakaze at 8,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Yakaze at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 13,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Stewart at 13,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Parrott at 13,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Paul Jones at 13,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Bulmer at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 17,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 17,000 yards
CA Mogami engages CL Marblehead at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
CA Mogami engages CL Marblehead at 19,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Yakaze at 19,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Paul Jones at 19,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Bulmer at 19,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Barker at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 21,000 yards
CL Marblehead engages DD Yakaze at 21,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Paul Jones at 21,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Barker at 21,000 yards
Riker, K.I. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 24,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages CL Marblehead at 24,000 yards
CA Mogami engages CL Marblehead at 24,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Parrott at 24,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Barker at 24,000 yards
Range increases to 27,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Barker at 27,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The net effect is these two fights basically wiped out US naval power in the DEIs (of the 5 survivors, two will sink for sure, and 2 more are at risk). Had the US not scored two torpedo hits on the Hyuga, the cost to Japan would have been minimal. As it is, the Hyuga will live to fight another day however, so ultimately the only price paid by Japan was a Japanese DD.

Jim

[MorningDew]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Miller
Your issue was very valid. Should have been looked at more pre-release[:-]

Did you read what Joe and I wrote as well?

Erik,

That's exactly what I was thinking [&:]

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Well it certainly did not happen during Salomon campaing... Japanese always retreated north.

The point is it can happen, it's not like Scheer wanted to get cut off from his bases after all.

I agree, it can happen. Historically it did not happened during Salomon campaing. In this game it's happening all the time when I try to attack Tulagi or Lunga.

One more thing. In this game the naval movement phase is 12 hours. In that time fast moving warships should be able to travel at least 600 kilometers. So there is no point why my cruisers end up one hex south of Lunga after retreating during the day naval movement.

[Scott_USN]

That depends on so many factors we can only ass u me..
 
Did the task force take 9 of 12 hours to form for battle and plan? Did they scatter afterwords and have to regroup? Were any ships damaged? Where too many op points used? Did the boiler room take a hit slowing the ship? Who knows. What if he attacked at night which is normal and fought through the enemy lines? Does he retreat south and NE or NW or go back through the enemy lines? I know which way I would go South.
 
If I wanted to play actual historical by the book games why not just get out Victory at Sea propaganda films and watch those? Because no one would retreat south if that was the only way, no US warship could possibly get lucky and kill the mighty Japanese Fleets...
 
These early battle were not exactly "even", I mean the Helena and her CLAA take on the prime Surface fleet of the IJN and some lived and won! Holy hell! They should have all been killed according to the extacting standards of game players.

[bklooste]

I think a major issue is the accuracy of the US 5" and 6" guns. If the belt can take these hits the accuracy is not relevant but otherwise they will lay waste to the opposition ( The same would be the case if it was US vs the RN) . In WITP  experience figured heavily so early in the war the accuracy was ok ( low exp high accuracy)   and later on it was devastating but no one questions such a later war cases.  With experienced being less of a factor  the accuracy is prob too high - I mean the 5/38 was NOT the most accurate gun in the Pacific war.    To test this we really should be testing Light Cruiser and Destroyers vs each other.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: bklooste


I think a major issue is the accuracy of the US 5" and 6" guns. If the belt can take these hits the accuracy is not relevant but otherwise they will lay waste to the opposition

Actually, this is not quite accurate. Virtually nothing fired at Hiei that night off Guadalcanal could penetrate her main belt..., yet she was left helpless to be finished off the next morning. You can't inflict catastrophic damage..., but the "death of 1000 cuts" can be just as fatal (and much more painfull).

[BShaftoe]

It seems there are far more reports of Japanese Navy underperforming than achieving something near to historical performance. If jwilkerson says that it seems that crew experience counts for nothing, I'd say there is a problem, because it's quite clear than crew experience (and CO skills) should be a major factor.

[BShaftoe]

One more thing:

I think that the experience levels for ship crews are too "static". There are training missions for air squadrons, but there are no drilling missions for military vessels. I mean: let's suppose I am an allied player, and I order my best cruisers to do night-drilling for two years (in a 4 years war, it would be perfectly possible). The night/day experience for those crews should rise: I mean, I know there would be a point in which the drilling would have minor impact, but come on, a little bit increase wouldn't do harm.

I guess that a crew drilling TF "mission" and a crew/CO experience/skill being a bigger factor in naval combat could be thought about.