Need some map designers' opinions

[tracer]

I finished the corrections on the icons of the military buildings (maximum zoom). Before I start on the other zoom levels I hoped a few folks familiar with map design/editing could give them a test ride or look at the attached screencaps. I need to know if their positions are OK, or if shifting some would make them more usable (as in forming connected structures).

If you've ever tried to use the existing buildings, saw that they didn't work properly and thought: 'I wish someone had asked me to look at these before they put them in the game'....well, this is that chance!

Thanks

Here's the file (remember, its 'max zoom' only): http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/upload/Ter61z4.zip

Here are the screencaps (hex that contains the building # is the center): 0-8 9-17 18-23 24-29 30-35 36-41 42-46

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by tracer
I finished the corrections on the icons of the military buildings (maximum zoom). Before I start on the other zoom levels I hoped a few folks familiar with map design/editing could give them a test ride or look at the attached screencaps. I need to know if their positions are OK, or if shifting some would make them more usable (as in forming connected structures).

If you've ever tried to use the existing buildings, saw that they didn't work properly and thought: 'I wish someone had asked me to look at these before they put them in the game'....well, this is that chance!

Thanks

Well....almost perfect tracer!
I would say building 22 needs a half hex shift to the left. Maybe 35 and 36 too, but I would edit them (building attribute!) in Freds MapEd anyway as they´re too large to fit into the 7 hex cluster. The half building/half clear hexes are always some small isue with all MH buildings. Hm...just leave them as they are now and go for the other zoom levels!:)

________
Harry

[tracer]

For buildings like 35-37 I tried to position them so that they could be connected. Number 35 can actually be joined in a row without clearing a hex from the adjacent buildings:



Joining number 37 requires clearing the lower 2 hexes from the row above it, but can be used to create large, continuous buildings:



With both of the above you still need to use Fred's map editor to fill in the 'mixed terrain' gaps.

I shifted #36 a little more to the left, and posted the updated Ter61z4: http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/upload/Ter61z4.zip

I'll look into #22 next, thanks Harry. I have back-ups of ter61, so if you (or anyone else) spots a problem or has an idea feel free to SPFix and mail me the new Ter61z4:

jimnsb@cfl.rr.com

Once z4 is fine tuned I should be able to knock out the other zoom levels in 2-3 days.

[M4Jess]

Very Very Cool! How can I get a copy????

M4 Jess~Trouble Maker

M4A376L@AOL.COM

[tracer]

Originally posted by M4 Jess
Very Very Cool! How can I get a copy????

M4 Jess~Trouble Maker

M4A376L@AOL.COM

Jess,
The file is at http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/upload/Ter61z4.zip . These are the structures in 'multihex buildings', #6 (military). We're still making changes, so be careful not to have this file in your SHP folder if you're making a real map!
The current file is dated 8/15/02 3:00PM; as changes are made I'll upload the new file and post a message here.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I've only done the z4 file so the buildings will only display correctly with the map set to max zoom. Once we get these all tweaked I'll make the changes to the other zoom levels.

Thanks

[Don Doom]

Looks good, I may have to go back and change my airfield map after you are done as I used some of the buildings in it.

Keep up ther good work!:D

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by tracer
For buildings like 35-37 I tried to position them so that they could be connected. Number 35 can actually be joined in a row without clearing a hex from the adjacent buildings:



Joining number 37 requires clearing the lower 2 hexes from the row above it, but can be used to create large, continuous buildings:



With both of the above you still need to use Fred's map editor to fill in the 'mixed terrain' gaps.

I shifted #36 a little more to the left, and posted the updated Ter61z4: http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/upload/Ter61z4.zip

I'll look into #22 next, thanks Harry. I have back-ups of ter61, so if you (or anyone else) spots a problem or has an idea feel free to SPFix and mail me the new Ter61z4:

jimnsb@cfl.rr.com

Once z4 is fine tuned I should be able to knock out the other zoom levels in 2-3 days.

Yes..good idea! I didn´t thought of connecting the buildings! I just did see the issue with "half" hexes that the map maker either needs to edit as clear (or any other) or Stone building! With regard to this I would leave building #22 as it is now! Some kind of multihex row buildings then. To give all of the buildings hexes the correct attributes we still need Freds Editor anyway. BTW: It´s possible in Freds Map Editor to convert the multihex stone buildings to multi hex wooden buildings if so desired, ...something that the SPWAW editor can´t do by itself!

Thanks again tracer for your work!:)

_________-
Harry

[tracer]

No rest for the wicked...more changes.

Per David Boutwell's suggestion I re-did structures 39-46; with their satellite dishes and radar antennas he appropriately dubbed them the 'Star Wars' buildings. Unfortunately, now the Guards 5th Tank Army can no longer get DirectTV. There's a new screencap here.

I also edited 25&26; they were too large to fit in the 7-hex cluster. The new buildings don't extended (as much) into adjacent hexes:



Here's the new Ter61z4 with the changes: http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/upload/Ter61z4.zip

Thanks, and keep the feedback coming!

[tracer]

Originally posted by Don Doom
Looks good, I may have to go back and change my airfield map after you are done as I used some of the buildings in it.

Keep up ther good work!:D

Don,
Thanks. You may want to pop in the Ter61z4 I posted (of course copying your current file to a safe place first) and see how your map looks with it. I positioned most of the buildings arbitrarily and can easily shift them somewhat to accommodate existing maps. Just tell me the icon number and which way it needs to go and I'll send you an updated Ter61z4 to try out. My whole intention is to make a map designer's work easier; just drop in a 'military multihex' without the current MapEd adjustments that are required.

[Don Doom]

Will do, after I get back from the flea market with the old ball & chain.[just kidding as she is sitting next to me reading this, and she is younger than me]

[Redleg]

This is GREAT WORK!

What is needed is a way to get this widely distributed so when players load up a scenario, it is ready to play.

These are just too good to get lost.

Perhaps when finished, all of the support sites could post this with instructions on how to install? This could make this a defacto new standard. The Dirty Dozen will be pleased to post such things if it would be helpful.

There are also some other works in progress. If all of this could be rounded up and made available, it would be a very nice addition to SPWAW.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by tracer
No rest for the wicked...more changes.

Per David Boutwell's suggestion I re-did structures 39-46; with their satellite dishes and radar antennas he appropriately dubbed them the 'Star Wars' buildings. Unfortunately, now the Guards 5th Tank Army can no longer get DirectTV.

Good Idea!

Originally posted by tracer

I also edited 25&26; they were too large to fit in the 7-hex cluster. The new buildings don't extended (as much) into adjacent hexes:

Thanks, and keep the feedback coming!

Thanks..this appears to be a good compromise!:) ..some things that i noticed though is that some of the (original) buildings interial shadows are not quite correct (not tracers fault!). The artificial SPWAW light source appears to come from 2 o´clock position but some interior shadows show the light coming from 10~11 o´clock! Well..I guess just me is noticing this little details...

see new screencap here.

_________
Harry

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by Redleg
This is GREAT WORK!

What is needed is a way to get this widely distributed so when players load up a scenario, it is ready to play.

These are just too good to get lost.

Perhaps when finished, all of the support sites could post this with instructions on how to install? This could make this a defacto new standard. The Dirty Dozen will be pleased to post such things if it would be helpful.

There are also some other works in progress. If all of this could be rounded up and made available, it would be a very nice addition to SPWAW.

I could possible write some instructions later on how to do the correct attribute editing of the irregular shaped multi hex buildings. There are some things that need to be considered when doing the edits!
Else..install is just a matter of pushing the Ter61 files into the SHP folder.

________
Harry

[Redleg]

Well, a lot of players will probably need to be told things like what to do with the files... and how to do it.

But the big thing is (I think), if these graphics are used to create a map, the user who has some other files, will see something different on the map.... or worse, a giant green glob.

It seems like the corrected military graphics in particular, could have an effect on gameplay. For example, in the past, I have made use of some of these by clearing the off-set hexes that have stone building attributes. Wouldn't replacing the graphic set cause this to print differently on the screen?

I know the other day, I was examining Watchtower scenarios and discovered that some of the changes in 7.1 caused weird graphics displays in some of the scenarios. Not SHP related, though.

[tracer]

Originally posted by Redleg
Well, a lot of players will probably need to be told things like what to do with the files... and how to do it.

But the big thing is (I think), if these graphics are used to create a map, the user who has some other files, will see something different on the map.... or worse, a giant green glob.

It seems like the corrected military graphics in particular, could have an effect on gameplay. For example, in the past, I have made use of some of these by clearing the off-set hexes that have stone building attributes. Wouldn't replacing the graphic set cause this to print differently on the screen?

I know the other day, I was examining Watchtower scenarios and discovered that some of the changes in 7.1 caused weird graphics displays in some of the scenarios. Not SHP related, though.

John, you hit on the two things that have been in the back of my mind since I started this: distribution and legacy (existing maps).

Distribution shouldn't be too hard; as new maps come out a link to the new Ter61's can be posted with them for those that haven't upgraded yet. Like the 7.1x patches, it may take a while for them to be universal but it will happen over time. They can also be placed in an 'installer' for those less computer saavy...maybe one that renames the old files for those a little skittish about altering SPWAW.

Grandfathering in old maps might be a stumbling block though. The ironic thing that I mentioned previously is that I started this because an old favorite of mine, through the progression of SPWAW versions, no longer displayed the military buildings properly. My hope is that by posting this 'work in progress', getting feedback and making adjustments, its effect on existing maps can be minimized. "Hope in one hand, and **** in the other...", right?

Feedback from the designers is vital; I'm counting on guidance and advice from those actually 'in the field'. Its their neighborhood and I'm in unfamiliar territory. I have all the images of the buildings in the other 3 zoom levels completed; I'm just waiting until all the revisions are completed and then I'll transfer them into the SHP files. It was a big project, but a project without a deadline isn't really work in my book!

Thanks to all for the ideas and suggestions I've gotten so far...I'd still be at square-one without it.

[tracer]

Originally posted by Redleg

But the big thing is (I think), if these graphics are used to create a map, the user who has some other files, will see something different on the map.... or worse, a giant green glob.

I've checked them out on several maps that had multihex-military structures. The only problems I've seen to this point are shifting and proportion (appear smaller/larger). As long as no new icons are added to the original 47 in Ter61, no green blobs should appear.

While editing the buildings I came up with some new ones that I really like, and have had others (like Harry's 'winter church') sent to me. I'm considering adding them to Ter61 since there are 50+ slots available in it. This could also be a good chance for those with buildings they've created to have them distributed and used on maps; like Brent pointed out to me, Ter61 is a 'user' file. Since existing maps only have buildings 00-46 on them, any new buildings added to Ter61 wouldn't affect them; this would only happen if a designer actually employed a 'new' (47-99) structure on a map and the user still had the old Ter61 files....then it would be 'attack of the blobs'.

I just re-read what I typed: its unbelievable the things I've learned incidentally from playing SPWAW. If I had read the above post 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have a clue what 1/2 of it meant!!

[Don Doom]

Originally posted by tracer


Don,
Thanks. You may want to pop in the Ter61z4 I posted (of course copying your current file to a safe place first) and see how your map looks with it. I positioned most of the buildings arbitrarily and can easily shift them somewhat to accommodate existing maps. Just tell me the icon number and which way it needs to go and I'll send you an updated Ter61z4 to try out. My whole intention is to make a map designer's work easier; just drop in a 'military multihex' without the current MapEd adjustments that are required.

Checked the ter61v4 file and the only one I use so far is 31. It has not moved so far.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by tracer


I've checked them out on several maps that had multihex-military structures. The only problems I've seen to this point are shifting and proportion (appear smaller/larger). As long as no new icons are added to the original 47 in Ter61, no green blobs should appear.

While editing the buildings I came up with some new ones that I really like, and have had others (like Harry's 'winter church') sent to me. I'm considering adding them to Ter61 since there are 50+ slots available in it. This could also be a good chance for those with buildings they've created to have them distributed and used on maps; like Brent pointed out to me, Ter61 is a 'user' file. Since existing maps only have buildings 00-46 on them, any new buildings added to Ter61 wouldn't affect them; this would only happen if a designer actually employed a 'new' (47-99) structure on a map and the user still had the old Ter61 files....then it would be 'attack of the blobs'.

I just re-read what I typed: its unbelievable the things I've learned incidentally from playing SPWAW. If I had read the above post 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have a clue what 1/2 of it meant!!

I think if various scenario/map designers used the old Ter61 file set already in some scenarios, they could honor tracer´s efforts by adapting to his new Ter61 file set, once finished IMO!;) This way all players don´t need to bother with possibly green blobs, ect. on their maps and simply can replace the old Ter61 files with the new ones.
For installment of the files, a simple self extracting ZIP file can be created and even an ordinary ZIP file does the purpose quite well.

Tracer..did you know that the TerXXX files can have more than 100 entries?? In fact I managed to fill them with up to 200 shapes and if placed in supported Files (means...can be accessed in SPWAW map Editor by choosing appropriate button-->Buildings f.e.) every scenario/map designer can use them without need to start up Freds Map Editor!

This is how my winter buildings shape file (Ter26) was made f.e.

I took Ter26 shape file (single hex wooden buildings) and simply expanded it with my winterized building versions. This means the original file now has more than double the entries than before and it´s still compatible with every scenario made before, using the single hex wooden buildings. In SPWAW map Editor the new (and all others) buildings can be accessed by use of the "SHIFT-1" short-cut. The winterized buildings start at slot 74 and go up to slot 145!
Important note: Shape 73 in Ter26 file needs to be a blanc, as it´s used for the multihex buildings to work correctly!!!

Go to SPWAW map editor, push "Add wooden building to hex" button, type "0" (nil) to choose "wooden building", type SHIFT-1 and you´re asked to "Select special icon number", type 74, left mouse click on map and you get the first winterized wooden building in the row! Everything else works just the same.

I just remembered that I also made some "jungle" style buildings taht I put in Ter82 shape file. (Wooden buildings USE1).
Map Editor: push "Add wooden building to hex" button, type "1" ( to choose "USE1", type SHIFT-1 and you´re asked to "Select special icon number", type 0 to 25, left mouse click on map and you get 25 jungle style buildings for all zoom levels properly centered!

Another thing worth to mention: You can even create completely new shape files that aren´t originally in the game! For example you can create a Ter91 shape file and fill it with everything you like! By default this new shape file will be of the "flat" style, like Ter86 (city streets) and can´t be accessed in the SPWAW editor. You need to place the tiles fromf this shape file in Freds MapEditor. As long as you have this new custom shape file resided in your SHP folder you always will see the new graphics on your map in sPWAW.

Try renaming one of the icon files (IconXXX.shp) to Ter91z4.shp (BACKUP original FIRST!) for example and place the icons in Freds Editor by use of "Tile transfer" command!

Some other info regarding Freds MapEditor: Buidling shapes only cast shadows when placed on sect/layer 5! Trees only cast shadows when placed on sect/layer 6!! (Did you notice the "Orchards" don´t cast shadows on the map? )

have fun

___________
Harry