Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

[Icedawg]

I've read descriptions of completely unbalanced surface combats, but didn't give it much thought - until this happened in my very first surface combat I've experienced in AE.

No ships were damaged prior to combat - just two groups of 100% combat ready ships and the superior force is completely sunk down to the very last ship (the two heavily damaged DD's sank the next day) while the outgunned force is barely scratched.

Please say that this will be addressed in the upcoming patch.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 08, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Singapore at 50,84, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
BB Haruna, Shell hits 26, and is sunk
CA Takao, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Atago, Shell hits 17, and is sunk
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DD Asashio, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Oshio, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Michishio, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Arashio, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Akatsuki, Shell hits 18, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hibiki, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 5, on fire
BC Repulse, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1
DD Vampire
DD Tenedos
DD Electra
DD Express, Shell hits 1



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
Phillips, Tom S.V. crosses the 'T'
BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 12,000 yards
BC Repulse engages BB Kongo at 12,000 yards
BB Haruna engages DD Express at 12,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Electra at 12,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Express at 12,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Electra at 12,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Express at 12,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Oshio at 12,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Asashio at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 8,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BC Repulse at 8,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages BC Repulse at 8,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Hibiki at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Oshio at 8,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
Murakami L. orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range closes to 6,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 6,000 yards
CA Atago engages BC Repulse at 6,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Takao at 6,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages BC Repulse at 6,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Arashio at 6,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
DD Asashio engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 5,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Atago at 5,000 yards
DD Asashio sunk by DD Electra at 5,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CL Jintsu at 5,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Hibiki at 5,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Express at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Express at 5,000 yards
DD Oshio sunk by DD Vampire at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
BB Kongo engages BC Repulse at 4,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Vampire at 4,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Express at 4,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Arashio at 4,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 4,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akatsuki at 4,000 yards
DD Arashio sunk by DD Tenedos at 4,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Michishio at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 3,000 yards
BB Kongo sunk by BB Prince of Wales at 3,000 yards
DD Hibiki sunk by DD Express at 3,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Vampire at 3,000 yards
CL Jintsu sunk by BC Repulse at 3,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 3,000 yards
DD Electra engages DD Akatsuki at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 4,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 4,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Takao at 4,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Electra at 4,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 4,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Michishio at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 5,000 yards
BB Haruna engages BC Repulse at 5,000 yards
CA Takao engages DD Express at 5,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
BC Repulse engages CA Atago at 6,000 yards
CA Atago sunk by BC Repulse at 6,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Michishio at 6,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Electra at 6,000 yards
DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 8,000 yards
BC Repulse engages DD Michishio at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Express at 8,000 yards
DD Akatsuki engages DD Electra at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akatsuki at 11,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akatsuki at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[AW1Steve]

The Brit's crossed the "T". That puts them in the overwhelming strategic position. More than 1/2 of the "overwhelming superior force's guns couldn't fire, and NONE of it's torpedos. Historically , it's a Admirals dream, and after Tushima , every admiral in the world sought to acheive it.
 
Like most things in life , the answer is "in the fine print"! [:D]

[Icedawg]

And, from John Dillworth's thread, here's another instance of a horribly overmatched force putting a serious hurting on the superior foe.

Did the playtesters not encounter these crazy results? If they did, I don't see why the game wasn't fixed prior to release.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2, on fire
CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 2
CL Tama, Shell hits 17, heavy fires
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Durban, Shell hits 1
CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
CL Capetown, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Stronghold
DD Decoy
DD Express
DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
DD Griffin
DD Isis, Shell hits 1
DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Norman
DD Panther, Shell hits 4, on fire

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

The Brit's crossed the "T". That puts them in the overwhelming strategic position. More than 1/2 of the "overwhelming superior force's guns couldn't fire, and NONE of it's torpedos. Historically , it's a Admirals dream, and after Tushima , every admiral in the world sought to acheive it.

Like most things in life , the answer is "in the fine print"! [:D]

That's true, but the British scored no hits in their initial surprise round. All of the damage came in subsequent rounds.

[herwin]

The Japanese advantage in visual search at night was not apparent in this engagement.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Japanese advantage in visual search at night was not apparent in this engagement.

Yeah, it looks like they had blind lookouts.

[Zebedee]

Let's add the pertinent details to that second combat report...

Low visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 5,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
CL Capetown launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
CL Caledon launches Torpedoes at CA Aoba at 5,000 yards
DD Panther launches Torpedoes at CV Shokaku at 5,000 yards
DD Norman launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Jupiter launches Torpedoes at BB Haruna at 5,000 yards
DD Isis launches Torpedoes at CA Chikuma at 5,000 yards
CL Colombo launches Torpedoes at CL Tama at 5,000 yards
DD Panther fires at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold launches Torpedoes at DD Asagao at 5,000 yards
DD Asagao sunk by DD Tjerk Hiddes at 5,000 yards
DD Tjerk Hiddes fires at DD Arare at 5,000 yards
DD Stronghold fires at DD Maikaze at 5,000 yards
DD Isis fires at DD Oyashio at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards

Cruiser led destroyer task force sneaks up on Japanese CV task force through a thunder storm and gets the jump because of radar as the Japanese lookouts can't see them. Allied force leads with a salvo of torpedoes before the Japanese even know they are there. Ouch!

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Japanese advantage in visual search at night was not apparent in this engagement.

Yeah, it looks like they had blind lookouts.

Brit ships have high night experience ratings, its only the USN that didn't bother with night fighting.

So, a clash of equals.

Looks to me like the Japs tried to disengage early on but couldn't. In fact the range continued to close. I guess Phillips was commanding in the Nelsonian tradition.

[EUBanana]

Gunwise it looks pretty even to me, 2 battleships versus 2 battleships, plus hangers on.

Except PoW was an extremely modern battleship with very heavy armour by RN standards, while Kongo and Haruna are WW1 converted battlecruisers, considered undergunned and underarmoured. POW is twice the size of a Kongo.

So I'd hardly say 'ridiculous'. An outlier to have such a crushing victory, but not ridiculous, no.

[jjax]

I agree that surface combat needs a bit of balancing.

But I think a lot of people are just looking at the number of ships and ship types and thinking that they should have won the battle.

Obviously, AE takes a lot of other factors into consideration. At the very least, now the combat reports are actually useful [;)]. In many ways, I think that how surface combat should be.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2, on fire
CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 2
CL Tama, Shell hits 17, heavy fires
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Durban, Shell hits 1
CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
CL Capetown, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Stronghold
DD Decoy
DD Express
DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
DD Griffin
DD Isis, Shell hits 1
DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Norman
DD Panther, Shell hits 4, on fire

This, however, is barking mad.

[jjax]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
Day Time Surface Combat, near Koggala at 30,52, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Hiryu, Shell hits 2, on fire
CV Soryu, Shell hits 4
CV Shokaku, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Haruna, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 1
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 9
CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 2
CL Tama, Shell hits 17, heavy fires
DD Oyashio, Shell hits 28, and is sunk
DD Maikaze, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Arare, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 5
DD Nokaze, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Asagao, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Durban, Shell hits 1
CL Caledon, Shell hits 1
CL Capetown, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
CL Colombo, Shell hits 11
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Stronghold
DD Decoy
DD Express
DD Fortune, Shell hits 1
DD Griffin
DD Isis, Shell hits 1
DD Jupiter, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Norman
DD Panther, Shell hits 4, on fire

This, however, is barking mad.

And you should read the whole combat report before you get barking mad. It might not be that far off as you thin (well maybe just a little).

[EUBanana]

It's been discussed before I  think but surface combat TFs have an advantage over other types of taskforce.  I think certainly in the case of what happens when they meet air combat TFs, the advantage seems to be far too great.

Surely the sole reason why a BB is in an air combat TF at all is to protect the CVs.   So theres two battleships there whose sole mission is to make sure the CVs are safe.  Thats a hell of a lot more firepower than a CL can manage, and in daylight too, and I presume in open seas.  And then theres a whole mass of DDs to screen against torpedo attacks.

Surely in daylight the Allies would be massacred 95% of the time.

I can understand a night battle being much more of a tossup, but during the day?

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: jjax
And you should read the whole combat report before you get barking mad. It might not be that far off as you thin (well maybe just a little).

...Ah. [;)][:D][:(]

Still, even then. The CVs are going to be right in the middle of a whole gang of ships screening them. Getting within 3000 yards of Shokaku seems unlikely, given there is going to be an escort between Shokaku and the attackers.

The radar didnt really give much warning, either.

Still, I suppose. Torpedoes at unsuspecting targets 5000 yards in a thunderstorm. Sure, I guess I can believe that.

[bstarr]

I've seen similar results. I wish I had saved the engagements, but I played with one action where the same Japanese fleet (Kongo, Haruna, etc) was attacked by Exeter and Enterprise (HMS, not USS) and a handlful of destoryers. The brits won hands down.

Now this is where it gets really wacky. I kept restarting the same fight, reducing the brits to see how weak they had to be to produce a loss. I finally got down to 1 CL, the Enterprise, vs the whole Japanese force - yes, the Enterprise was sunk, but she took the Kongo and a destroyer down with her.

Yeah, something needs to be fixed.

[Miller]

In the two fights mentioned the RN wins 15:2 in torpedo hits.

[pad152]

Any one seen a surface combat where the Japanese defeats a equal or superior force? So far I haven't!

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

It's been discussed before I  think but surface combat TFs have an advantage over other types of taskforce.  I think certainly in the case of what happens when they meet air combat TFs, the advantage seems to be far too great.

Surely the sole reason why a BB is in an air combat TF at all is to protect the CVs.   So theres two battleships there whose sole mission is to make sure the CVs are safe.  Thats a hell of a lot more firepower than a CL can manage, and in daylight too, and I presume in open seas.  And then theres a whole mass of DDs to screen against torpedo attacks.

Surely in daylight the Allies would be massacred 95% of the time.

I can understand a night battle being much more of a tossup, but during the day?

There is one issue. Carriers and transports should be behind (at least some of) the destroyers and heavy gunships, not mixed in with them. The game currently organises one or two lines of combatants. It should add a third for carriers and non-combatants.

[Crimguy]

If visibility is truly horrible, there is certainly a chance that the attackers could get a major jump on the defenders.

I have only had one surface engagement so far of any size, and the Japs crushed me.

[denisonh]

I would prefer to see this engagement run 30 times and see what the distribution of outcomes are.



One cannot evaluate a combat model with a single outcome. Kind of like if I win the lottery on the first ticket I buy having the expectation to win everytime.