Resource pathways

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Hi guys.  A few notes on all of this.  Based on the Japanese fleet of 7 Dec 41 (no conversions beyond what currently exists), the total capacity of all AK/AP/TK/AO/Minecraft/AMCs is:

Troop capacity:  ~400,000
Cargo capacity:  ~3,000,000
Liquid capacity:  ~600,000

I think there will be sufficient capacity for resources, but TKs will be stressed.  The TKs themselves carry only 414,000.  AOs will have to support a lot (I'm thinking the 8k AOs) and TKs will have to be accelerated.

Thanks Mike. I'm assuming the liquid capacity you've worked out includes the liquid capacity of those AKs able to carry it?

I'm also presuming there's no way of loading both liquid and solids at the same time, meaning such AKs will be penalised by an extra day in port loading?

How much capacity can those "dual use" xAK have? 10,000? 15,000? 20,000? 300 units per ship isn´t much.

[Mynok]

Check the Japanese merchant shipping thread. There's a spreadsheet of all of them in there.

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: SireChaos
How much capacity can those "dual use" xAK have? 10,000? 15,000? 20,000? 300 units per ship isn´t much.

The amounts carried are usually minimal. However, if you're burning the fuel to go both ways in any case to pick up resources, there may be a good reason to take something back to the Home Islands other than just resources. This could free up tankers for use elsewhere. Regular runs will act as a multiplier on the small loads carried. The numbers to haul liquids about are really, really tight. Every little helps. Or so the missus assures me.

[romanovich]

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

I really wouldn't recommend enlarging light industry for no reason other than the fact that it is an inefficient supply generator relative to heavy industry.

Furthermore, to enlarge the LI at Toyohara is going to cost a down-payment of 4000 supply and a further 40000 supply (which you will have to ship in) to repair the 'damaged' new LI centres. I would rather that supply took the form of ammunition being fired at the enemy.

I think that the problem for Japanese players lies not in expanding their economy but in making optimum use of what they start with.

What's the source for the figures related to build-out/repair again? The manual mentions costs of enlargement only in passing (Sec 13.3.2 Factory Upgrades), and the 10x10x100 rule described there applies only to HI, NOT to LI it seems. Sure the costs above apply to LI as well?

And where can you get repair costs from (1000 supply to repair one damage LI point)?

I don't have access to the game/editor/WITPStaff right now, so if the answers are in there, just please point me to the right source real quick and I'll look it up later. Thanks!

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Hi guys.  A few notes on all of this.  Based on the Japanese fleet of 7 Dec 41 (no conversions beyond what currently exists), the total capacity of all AK/AP/TK/AO/Minecraft/AMCs is:

Troop capacity:  ~400,000
Cargo capacity:  ~3,000,000
Liquid capacity:  ~600,000

I think there will be sufficient capacity for resources, but TKs will be stressed.  The TKs themselves carry only 414,000.  AOs will have to support a lot (I'm thinking the 8k AOs) and TKs will have to be accelerated.

Thanks Mike. I'm assuming the liquid capacity you've worked out includes the liquid capacity of those AKs able to carry it?

I'm also presuming there's no way of loading both liquid and solids at the same time, meaning such AKs will be penalised by an extra day in port loading?

I have included the AKs. They don't carry much, just a total of 26.4k.

[Tophat1815]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Hi guys.  A few notes on all of this.  Based on the Japanese fleet of 7 Dec 41 (no conversions beyond what currently exists), the total capacity of all AK/AP/TK/AO/Minecraft/AMCs is:

Troop capacity:  ~400,000
Cargo capacity:  ~3,000,000
Liquid capacity:  ~600,000

I think there will be sufficient capacity for resources, but TKs will be stressed.  The TKs themselves carry only 414,000.  AOs will have to support a lot (I'm thinking the 8k AOs) and TKs will have to be accelerated.

Thanks Mike. I'm assuming the liquid capacity you've worked out includes the liquid capacity of those AKs able to carry it?

I'm also presuming there's no way of loading both liquid and solids at the same time, meaning such AKs will be penalised by an extra day in port loading?

I have included the AKs. They don't carry much, just a total of 26.4k.

That is a great deal lighter liquid lift than I thought for the AK's. I am a victim of WiTpstaff not functioning as well. Is there any oil to spare or be shipped out of Manchuria to the Home Islands?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
Is there any oil to spare or be shipped out of Manchuria to the Home Islands?

I haven't gotten that far in my analysis yet. I suspect the answer is no.

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
If what has been lost is a ship loading or unloading rate bonus, rather than an increase in a port's daily handling capacity, then that's quite serious. There can be a world of difference between the basic per-ship load/unload rate and the corresponding rates as supplemented by the bonus. If that isn't WAD the I should like to see it corrected. I'm less worried about a loss of a port's daily handling capacity bonus because I think that would have less impact than a loss of bonus rates on individual ship loading/unloading.

It's the unload port daily rate that's bugged.

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: Zebedee
I'm also presuming there's no way of loading both liquid and solids at the same time, meaning such AKs will be penalised by an extra day in port loading?

No, both can load at the same time. (subject to port limits)

[Local Yokel]

ORIGINAL: erstad

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
If what has been lost is a ship loading or unloading rate bonus, rather than an increase in a port's daily handling capacity, then that's quite serious. There can be a world of difference between the basic per-ship load/unload rate and the corresponding rates as supplemented by the bonus. If that isn't WAD the I should like to see it corrected. I'm less worried about a loss of a port's daily handling capacity bonus because I think that would have less impact than a loss of bonus rates on individual ship loading/unloading.

It's the unload port daily rate that's bugged.

Is that the 'Daily Cargo Limit' in the table on page 125 of the manual/'Port Load Ability' as defined in 6.3.3.2.3? Presumably the figure in column 7 of the table is operating as a ceiling on what a TF can unload per turn, regardless of whether that ceiling ought to have been uplifted due to the presence of resource centres? Strange that it should only be limiting unloading ops, and not loading as well. Very impressive that you were able to pick that up!

[Local Yokel]

ORIGINAL: romanovich

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

I really wouldn't recommend enlarging light industry for no reason other than the fact that it is an inefficient supply generator relative to heavy industry.

Furthermore, to enlarge the LI at Toyohara is going to cost a down-payment of 4000 supply and a further 40000 supply (which you will have to ship in) to repair the 'damaged' new LI centres. I would rather that supply took the form of ammunition being fired at the enemy.

I think that the problem for Japanese players lies not in expanding their economy but in making optimum use of what they start with.

What's the source for the figures related to build-out/repair again? The manual mentions costs of enlargement only in passing (Sec 13.3.2 Factory Upgrades), and the 10x10x100 rule described there applies only to HI, NOT to LI it seems. Sure the costs above apply to LI as well?

And where can you get repair costs from (1000 supply to repair one damage LI point)?

I don't have access to the game/editor/WITPStaff right now, so if the answers are in there, just please point me to the right source real quick and I'll look it up later. Thanks!

I suspect this is a hold-over from the text of the previous manual. LI isn't mentioned as attracting an expansion cost, but neither is the other new feature of production, refineries. But if you hover the pointer over the expansion option for either, they give an expansion cost as per section 13.3.2.

Section 13.2.1.5 says that "Supply points are required to supply ground and air units and expand/repair factories" If you expand, you get damaged factories. Always been a cost of 1000 supply to repair one point of damage, and AFAIK that has not changed.

[Zebedee]

Thanks Mike. 26.4k total is a drop in the ocean. But even twice a month runs to an oil and resource hub turn it into a factor worth considering.

ORIGINAL: erstad

No, both can load at the same time. (subject to port limits)

Sorry erstad. At the same time on the same ship I mean? As far as I can tell it's load fuel or load oil or load resources. Is there an option I'm missing?

Oil will likely be the main issue for liquid capacity as fuel can be cross-loaded.

[Mynok]

If you load resources and there is liquid capacity it will load oil. If you load supply and there is liquid capacity it will load fuel.

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


If you load resources and there is liquid capacity it will load oil. If you load supply and there is liquid capacity it will load fuel.

Thanks for clarifying that for me Mynok. I'm still going through the editor to corral those ships up while figuring out just what's the best use for them.

[Mynok]

Hint for the wise: always double-check what I say against the manual. Old brain cells are notoriously noisy. [;)]

[Mike Solli]

Hey Mynok, when you get to be my age, you'll have so few brain cells left there will be plenty of room for them to bounce around without hitting each other.  Much less noisy. [:D]

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Hint for the wise: always double-check what I say against the manual. Old brain cells are notoriously noisy. [;)]

I'm guessing that previous tidbit of info is on one of the 150 pages still left for me to print out from the pdf I'll take your noisy brain over my failing eyes any day of the week

Interesting comments by Don Bowen on load and unload rates in the AE Naval and OOB stickied thread. Effectively, you only get the load bonus - not the unload. This might have an impact upon regional hubs more than anything else. Guess to unload on the Home Islands the Japan player would be wise to have a number of options for unloading in any case - if only to force less concentration of Allied sub forces from obvious convoy routes.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Hey Mynok, when you get to be my age, you'll have so few brain cells left there will be plenty of room for them to bounce around without hitting each other.  Much less noisy. [:D]

No, only less loud. The signal-to-noise ratio remains the same: miniscule. [:'(]

[Local Yokel]

I think what Dave Erstad found (and Don has confirmed) is that presence of resources, etc, enhances both the load and unload rates per ship, and that in addition you get the increase in the port's overall daily cargo handling capacity for loading operations, but no increase in the corresponding capacity for unloading.

My calculations indicate that although the big Honshu ports will consequently not get the benefit of enlarged daily capacity for unloading operations, the value of that lost benefit is not particularly great when set against the big port's unadjusted daily capacity. For example, Kobe (size 10) has an unadjusted capacity to unload a total of 176000 points per day. Had it got an increase in that capacity attributable to the 160 resource centres present, that capacity would only have increased to 179200 - a difference of only 3200, which is not much when compared with the substantial unadjusted capacity available.

In CHS I was never sold on the need for a hub system fed by outlying bases. I had so many ships I could leave them disbanded in port in a loaded condition waiting for a Japan-bound convoy to come by. This had the merit of not putting any burden on the port's load/unload capabilities - which have now become even more important. Unfortunately, the possible dearth of cargo tonnage may mean that this approach is no longer feasible.

For me, the important thing will be to have enhanced loading facilities in the captured SRA bases, and in Kyushu and Hokkaido (to shift the surpluses from there), and the full benefit of big ports for unloading in Honshu. Not much scope for port development in the big island, looks like Okayama and Maizuru are the only candidates.

On another subject: no oil surplus in Manchukuo. It needs an extra 650 oil points per day to use its full refining capacity.

[Zebedee]

Ah I used 'rate' and not 'capacity' [:o] Sorry. Been figuring out the optimum rates and capacities for the Empire's ports (and beyond) today and cross-referencing with which cargo ships are available to be used for maximum efficiency and the two have kind of blurred. Apologies for booboo.

Has anyone figured out the undocked load/unload rates and capacities? I can't find it documented in the manual (eg p.126) and searching the pdf has not come up with anything.