AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[Andy Mac]

Ah excellent

[Jo van der Pluym]

Hi

1. The KNIL Mariener Brigade must be Mariniers Brigade and is not a KNIL unit.

2. The 1st KNIL (T) Brigade must be T Brigade and is also not a KNIL unit. It's raised in the Netherland from Dutch Volunteers.

3. I miss Korps Insuline a Dutch para-trained commando unit raised from volunteers from the Princess Irene brigade in 1942 on Ceylon,

4. The only new raised KNIL units in war where the 1st KNIL Battaljon in Australia and after liberation of some parts of DEI /Prison Camps (Tarakan) the 2nd KNIL Battaljon and 3rd KNIL Battaljon and how more parts are liberated how more KNIL battaljons.

5. From spring 1946 arrives more Dutch units in the DEI from the Netherlands

[khyberbill]

So on with the show fire away !!!

I am playing a PBEM and we are now at 27 Feb 42. My problem is in China. Soon he will be knocking on the doors (kicking them down actually) of Chungking. I tried to collapse my army to the cities of Changsa (soon to be invested with 32 units), Sian (42 Japan units there now), Loyang (21 units now) and Kweiyang (soon to be about 40). I am taking bombardment casualties of around 3000+ a turn in each of Loyang and Sian. My impression from reading all the pre-release news about AE is that these death stars would be hobbled by supply. If he is hobbled much more, he will be in Calcutta by the spring. I have all units set to rest except for in the cities that he is contesting.

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

So on with the show fire away !!!

I am playing a PBEM and we are now at 27 Feb 42. My problem is in China. Soon he will be knocking on the doors (kicking them down actually) of Chungking. I tried to collapse my army to the cities of Changsa (soon to be invested with 32 units), Sian (42 Japan units there now), Loyang (21 units now) and Kweiyang (soon to be about 40). I am taking bombardment casualties of around 3000+ a turn in each of Loyang and Sian. My impression from reading all the pre-release news about AE is that these death stars would be hobbled by supply. If he is hobbled much more, he will be in Calcutta by the spring. I have all units set to rest except for in the cities that he is contesting.

Do you have a house rule that prevents units from Manchuria from being used without political points?

Also, do you see a number of divisions operating in the DEI/Phillipines/Malaya, or are they absent? (Converse question - are you seeing the unrestricted Jap units in China, off the top of my head the Imperial Guards, 38th division, 22nd division, 4 division, etc.)

[vaned74]

Hi there - I'm Bill's opponent in the PBEM - I was thinking about posting in here that bombardment casualties seem way out of whack. I had been running a few head to head games vs myself (yes I know I am sick...) and found out that the heavy arty is deadly, particularly to un-entrenched units. So, I have spent just about every PP point (up to 4,500 at this point) pulling the heavy art bns and regiments out of Manchuria and into China - some are cheaper than others, I can't tell why.

I think my opponent kinda let China slip by unnoticed for a little while (and I think he will admit this) assuming it to be a morass - I was able to concentrate my armor (including many regts shipped in from Hainan/Formosa) and drive into Nanyang, cutting the Chinese northern forces into in half and isolating a large pocket of about 13 corps between Sinyang and Nanyang. As opposed to finishing off the corps, I started concentrating forces and headed for Sian (which was partly my plan as I had been prepping units there for a while - there is no easy road route from Chengchow, Loyang back to Sian so those forward deployed forces are in trouble if not pulled back early).

The rest is just opportunity - I suppose it is no secret but the PI heavy arty and the heavy arty deployed with 38th division have taken the south road. Given the enemy's withdrawals into fortress Singapore, Soerbaja, Batavia, and Manila (2 of which I have no idea how to crack - Singapore will be a bloody shock attack across the straits from Johore...) this has freed up a lot of specialist assets and about 4 divisions worth of troops to reinforce a drive from Hanoi and Canton up behind the center Chinese forces.

Once on top of the game in China I opted to slow all other advances up and just take advantage of the opportunity to secure my interior and seize all probably Chinese airfields that could hurt the home islands later. May or may not be a mistake. The fact that units die so readily when retreating and never recover if you stay after them (pursuit or not, doesn't matter, you can catch them easily before they recover b/c their fatigue/disruption is too high to prevent fast movement after a retreat from combat) also has resulted in recognition that once the enemy is down, keep on top of him. As RE Lee said at Chancellorsville - "we must press those people..."

Strategy aside, I think land combat has been perhaps overly tweaked.

(1) artillery bombardments are downright lethal, Bill is right - I have been wasting 3,000 to 5,000 troops per day by two bombardments of about 8 regiments/bns at each location. I think WitP's original artillery model wasn't far off although with slow/large bombardments killing a few hundred troops/day even though I know many folks complained about how static land combat was. Even if FOW is on, concentrations of 70,000 to 80,000 troops in cities in China are too easy to kill off as Japan in AE.

(2) when units retreat - they die in droves; I noticed that leaving a retreat path open for units is a far more efficient way to kill them off; you simply fight them with a pair of units having one pursue from reserve while the other attacks - once the stack is broken the losses are deadly. There seems to be no way to screen retreats.

On the supply question - I have had little issue supplying my forces in China; partly this is due to consolidation of road and rail lines and moving hq assets/supply convoys into the interior to pull supplies from coastal drop-offs. Partly also though we have captured a lot of resource/light industry. A 40 pt light industry center will produce 1,200 supplies a month or enough to sustain a division in normal operations. May or may not be accurate.

Thoughts or observations by others would be appreciated. I can't dispute Bill's probable frustration on this one at all and my pending frustration as late war US formations are loaded for bear with firepower.

[Iron Duke]

AEC Matador ? just wondering why this vehicle was included ?

[khyberbill]

Don answered before I could, but I was going to say that I didn't thing he was pulling any gamey tricks. He came right at me, no airdrops to cut off retreat etc with pansywansy companies. But the Chinese troops start out poorly trained, poorly led and poorly fed and they move slower than Japan. We started the PBEM shortly after AE came out and have been playing two day turns. Because we have gotten in about 3 turns a day, we are now at March 1, 1942. Other than the land combat model (China/Burma) I am happy with the game, oh and except for those subs that run out of fuel before reaching port. That is a pet peeve. Didn't any beta testers use subs?

While I admit I havent spent a whole lot of time working on China, that is because there isn't much to work with. He attacks, I retreat. He bottles me up, I die from the art attacks. 5000+ casualties per assault are not uncommon. When I bombard I actually receive more casualties than I inflict. I read all those words that said China is a morass and believed them; and it is for the Chinese but it is a playground for the Japanese. There are no Chinese reinforcements coming in except for those from surrendering.

It is not unreasonable to expect Don to take Chungking in a few weeks. I don't expect that will end the game (but it is a 2400 point swing in the score) but I may lose on points at the end of 42 or early 43. However if this is the new land war model for China/AE then I see no reason to start any new PBEMs. Except as Japan.

As far as future HRs, I don't think it is fair to have a HR that says Japan cant bring artillery and armor to China, or how about Australia or India? In fact, I thought one of the goals of AE was to reduce HRs. However, the Japanese player knows exactly what assets the allies start with and where they are and I have a feeling that I wont be the first to feel the sting of this strategy now that it is known. Don saw a weakness in China, the power of artillery, the easy death of retreated troops and exploited it. He bombards for a few turns, does a deliberate attack with his armor in reserve and on it goes. Don has destroyed 5 or 6 corps, the same amount of HQ and has about 20 corp on the ropes. And about 20 more he can pick off at leisure in Yenan etc.

Incidentally, Don is bitch slapping the heck out of me in Burma with the same tactics. An earlier poster asked where are the Imperial Guards? Well, they are advancing nicely in Burma. They should be able to eat sushi in the Red Fort a few months after Chungking falls. An invasion of Northern India is supposed to trigger something (not specified in the manual of what or when-perhaps a mobile canteen?) but the speed of advance to Karachi or Bombay might be faster than the reinforcements.

And for those of you sending cards or letters, please add rice for our chaps in Chungking.

[Mynok]

Sounds like bombardment might need a look, but your opponent has reinforced China fairly heavily. When the Japanese made a serious effort in China historically, the Chinese were quite incapable of stopping them from doing as they pleased.

[vaned74]

Mynok is correct - Japan has poured reinforcements into China - mainly specialist units. The offensives started out simply as a means of securing the supply lines into Wuchang/Hankow and sweeping the interior but developed quickly and into a coordinated plan. Actually, I stand corrected in my prior post - I didn't pay PPs in this game for all the arty and engineers. I did in my other game that I am playing myself in to understand the system mechanics. Bill and I didn't have any house rules on that but in retrospect given its effectiveness, we probably should. I still have though over 10,000 AV guarding Manchuria so it's not like the garrison was denuded much.

I have always wondered why the Japanese did not implement operation Ichi-Go earlier in the war, especially when the Russians were distracted by the Germans. The intent of the operation to open the rail lines and create a landlink to Indo-China was a good strategic aim and with 20/20 hindsight into the shipping struggles and ravages of US submarines and heavy bombers, probably one that if the Imperial High Command had to do over they would have struck sooner.

On the flip side, I think the real issue may be the movement of supplies and ability to support troops on limited transportation networks. I have found it quite easy to move large stockpiles of supply to where needed. For example, I clicked that little arrow on Nanyang and pulled 50,000 tons in a turn into into to flow uproad to my units in Sian.

Perhaps the real solution is some limitation on how much supply can flow between two bases based on the transportation network?

Japanese players will note that now port-to-port transfers in the home islands is limited to 500 tons of resources per port size and 100 tons of oil - fyi to all Japanese players - you will need to use those little AKLs and small tankers to supplement the automatic transfer of oil and resources between the home islands. It's a one hex trip but I am seeing locations like Hakodate and Fukuoka loaded with resources. No more dump everything in Sasebo and let it flow everywhere...(even if port handling limitations allowed it - which they don't).

[khyberbill]

Sounds like bombardment might need a look, but your opponent has reinforced China fairly heavily. When the Japanese made a serious effort in China historically, the Chinese were quite incapable of stopping them from doing as they pleased.

Good point Mynok. Now then, why play the game? If you can take out China totally by the end of March or early April then Australia or India should be a breeze. In my PBEMS as Japan it has always taken me to the end of 43 to take Australia. I think that it is now doable by August with this new model of bombardment, followed by retreat and then the destruction of the retreating ground forces by the reserves in hot pursuit. Fortified cities are small speed bumps. Incidentally, I can't build the fort in Chungking beyond 6. Those that read Sneers [&o] AAR can recall his frustration with the land combat model. I bet Sneer is really looking forward to a rematch with RaverDave.

[Andy Mac]

If you have enough supply Chungking can be built beyond 6.
 
The game design (and hopefully prevented by code from patch 2) is intended that restricted unitys should be bought out via PP's - restricted units are not supposed to cross borders.
 
AEC Matador makes allied arty units slower and bigger and use more supply.
 
Heavy Arty against forces without even 1 or 2 forts will be extremely nasty - thats why forts 1 and 2 are so easy to build

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: vaned74

Hi there - I'm Bill's opponent in the PBEM - I was thinking about posting in here that bombardment casualties seem way out of whack. I had been running a few head to head games vs myself (yes I know I am sick...) and found out that the heavy arty is deadly, particularly to un-entrenched units. So, I have spent just about every PP point (up to 4,500 at this point) pulling the heavy art bns and regiments out of Manchuria and into China - some are cheaper than others, I can't tell why.

I think my opponent kinda let China slip by unnoticed for a little while (and I think he will admit this) assuming it to be a morass - I was able to concentrate my armor (including many regts shipped in from Hainan/Formosa) and drive into Nanyang, cutting the Chinese northern forces into in half and isolating a large pocket of about 13 corps between Sinyang and Nanyang. As opposed to finishing off the corps, I started concentrating forces and headed for Sian (which was partly my plan as I had been prepping units there for a while - there is no easy road route from Chengchow, Loyang back to Sian so those forward deployed forces are in trouble if not pulled back early).

The rest is just opportunity - I suppose it is no secret but the PI heavy arty and the heavy arty deployed with 38th division have taken the south road. Given the enemy's withdrawals into fortress Singapore, Soerbaja, Batavia, and Manila (2 of which I have no idea how to crack - Singapore will be a bloody shock attack across the straits from Johore...) this has freed up a lot of specialist assets and about 4 divisions worth of troops to reinforce a drive from Hanoi and Canton up behind the center Chinese forces.

Once on top of the game in China I opted to slow all other advances up and just take advantage of the opportunity to secure my interior and seize all probably Chinese airfields that could hurt the home islands later. May or may not be a mistake. The fact that units die so readily when retreating and never recover if you stay after them (pursuit or not, doesn't matter, you can catch them easily before they recover b/c their fatigue/disruption is too high to prevent fast movement after a retreat from combat) also has resulted in recognition that once the enemy is down, keep on top of him. As RE Lee said at Chancellorsville - "we must press those people..."

Strategy aside, I think land combat has been perhaps overly tweaked.

(1) artillery bombardments are downright lethal, Bill is right - I have been wasting 3,000 to 5,000 troops per day by two bombardments of about 8 regiments/bns at each location. I think WitP's original artillery model wasn't far off although with slow/large bombardments killing a few hundred troops/day even though I know many folks complained about how static land combat was. Even if FOW is on, concentrations of 70,000 to 80,000 troops in cities in China are too easy to kill off as Japan in AE.

(2) when units retreat - they die in droves; I noticed that leaving a retreat path open for units is a far more efficient way to kill them off; you simply fight them with a pair of units having one pursue from reserve while the other attacks - once the stack is broken the losses are deadly. There seems to be no way to screen retreats.

On the supply question - I have had little issue supplying my forces in China; partly this is due to consolidation of road and rail lines and moving hq assets/supply convoys into the interior to pull supplies from coastal drop-offs. Partly also though we have captured a lot of resource/light industry. A 40 pt light industry center will produce 1,200 supplies a month or enough to sustain a division in normal operations. May or may not be accurate.

Thoughts or observations by others would be appreciated. I can't dispute Bill's probable frustration on this one at all and my pending frustration as late war US formations are loaded for bear with firepower.

Look at the version 4.0.1 OCS rules for an idea of how artillery should function. It does do most of the killing, but at the cost of most of the supply. In addition, the real advantage of artillery is in suppression.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

Sounds like bombardment might need a look, but your opponent has reinforced China fairly heavily. When the Japanese made a serious effort in China historically, the Chinese were quite incapable of stopping them from doing as they pleased.

Good point Mynok. Now then, why play the game? If you can take out China totally by the end of March or early April then Australia or India should be a breeze. In my PBEMS as Japan it has always taken me to the end of 43 to take Australia. I think that it is now doable by August with this new model of bombardment, followed by retreat and then the destruction of the retreating ground forces by the reserves in hot pursuit. Fortified cities are small speed bumps. Incidentally, I can't build the fort in Chungking beyond 6. Those that read Sneers [&o] AAR can recall his frustration with the land combat model. I bet Sneer is really looking forward to a rematch with RaverDave.

There are zero similarities between China and India. A Japan that reinforces China is going to be less aggressive elsewhere. You'll have to give him cause to reconsider his commitment.

And I do not buy the 'take out China totally' thing at all. That's just hyperbole.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Sounds like bombardment might need a look, but your opponent has reinforced China fairly heavily. When the Japanese made a serious effort in China historically, the Chinese were quite incapable of stopping them from doing as they pleased.

Except that Japan's #1 war goal was to force China to surrender. And they had been trying in earnest from 1937-41. If they could have defeated China without attacking the Western Allies, they would have.

Much of the trouble the Japanese had (unsurprisingly) was due to stretched supply lines in a hostile country. Ichi-Go worked, in part, because the main advance ran across Southern China, roughly parallel to the Coastal ports. When the Japanese tried to advance too far inland (the three battles of Changsha) they often got a bloody nose.

So even with the impressive Japanese reinforcements, if AE truly allows the Japanese to roll through Chungking -- and more examples would be helpful before we all jump to that conclusion -- then some rebalancing may be in order.

[khyberbill]

f you have enough supply Chungking can be built beyond 6.

The game design (and hopefully prevented by code from patch 2) is intended that restricted unitys should be bought out via PP's - restricted units are not supposed to cross borders.

AEC Matador makes allied arty units slower and bigger and use more supply.

Heavy Arty against forces without even 1 or 2 forts will be extremely nasty - that's why forts 1 and 2 are so easy to build

Lets start at the top,

1) No one is not going to have enough supply to build Chungking beyond lvl 6 fort for a long time.

2) My opponent spent the PPs to buy out the Arty Batts. He has sent his save game files to kereguelen for review. To my knowledge he has not done anything gamey and is just playing the game as designed by Matrix. Perhaps I am a crummy.

3) No comment about the AEC Matador. I don't have any in this game yet.

4) My forts are at lvl 3 in Sian and lvl 4 in Loyang. Losses are much heavier in Loyang, consistently in the 5000+ range. Perhaps I shouldn't have raised them to 4? Now that the forces are getting wiped out, that number is between 3000-5000 per bombardment. All forces are in combat mode.

[witpqs]

Slot 5668 - 1st USMC Air Wing Base Force is shown as being a US Army unit.

[witpqs]

Andy,

In addition to other comments earlier about AI behavior with carriers, I'm also seeing the AI run carriers back and forth through minefields in my bases.

[Andy Mac]

Do you have a save with it running through a minefield

[witpqs]

Not sure. It's been done so many times this game at Merak, and once at Batavia. The AI is running plenty of ships into those minefields without - so far as I can tell - any attempt at mine clearing. Didn't clear my mines out of Bataan after capture either. Well, it cleared them the hard way. When it came to carriers I figure they don't belong in the hex at all.

If I can find one, do you want a save before combat so you can run it or afterward so you can see the report?

[Blackhorse]

Noted. Thanks.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Slot 5668 - 1st USMC Air Wing Base Force is shown as being a US Army unit.