PT Boats are awesome

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I don't like the idea of restricting units from doing something that they actually could do (or did, in some circumstances). Small vessels did operate in open sea, so what I would rather see is negative combat modifiers applied to small craft (100 tonnes or less?) in deep sea hexes (shallow waters on a map the scale of WITP will have small islets and more sheltered waters in many places). Perhaps the negative combat modifiers would not apply during clear weather? 

Limiting PTs to coastal hexes - no. For two reasons: 1-it's not historic/realistic )PT's were transported across open sea, and 2-there's a large (but limited number of) PT slots in the database. Once those are used up then the allied player is stuck with PTs at a rear base they can't reposition.

Why not just make the PT's less effective against non-barges, AKs, TKs and APs? That would be much more realistic. I'd even not argue with making them much less effective.

In the meantime you could always edit the database and make a PT torpedo that can't penetrate any belt armor greater than say 1 and edit your non-armored ships (like DDs) to give them a belt armor of 1.

[Fishbed]

Do people actually read posts? Again, we're talking about transferring PTs to other bases through open ocean using a tender or AK to look after them. I'd say sending PTs without support in the wild, in fighting order doesn't sound like anything historical at all.

PTs in the open ocean, ok. 1 or 2 hex, and that's it. But anything longer would really need a shepherd to look after them. Do people realize we're talking about 40nm (or is it km?) hexs? Man, two hex out there, and that's already a 160nm roundtrip, which is bad already by day - but by night?! a 300 klicks rountrip, and then half-way there they'd have to fight?! You people have no mercy [;)]

[spence]

PT boat success with their torpedoes is a bit overstated. But IRL the fearsome IJN (torpedo-boat) destroyers only managed to sink 7 PTs throughout the war so it would seem that a realistic engagement would include a lot of smoke and fire and very little actual damage. There is the little point about just how effectively those anchored and unguarded transports would protect themselves against any armed attacker though.

I now have about 12 game-months of play in as Allies vs AI. PT's seem way too effective. They kill unescorted ships, escorted ships, and get lucky against warships. Two times I've had them torpedo a carrier in the KB on the 4th day of attacks on Pearl Harbor. I've had them otherwise catch (and torpedo) carriers in ocean hexes also.

Of course limiting the KB's 4th day of attacks on PH by would be terribly ahistoric as well. [8|]

[Cavalry Corp]

Maybe a penalty in open sea hexes like

double ops damage and 50% reduced accuracy

Cav

[Dili]

Why? PT's should be allowed to get where their range can puts them. If there are issues with fighting ability in high seas - Germans didn't had any problem with their S-boats neither the British with MGB's -link it to weather in the hex. The US PT boats in Med were modded with extra range fuel tanks.

I don't see any problem with interceptions above, so maybe someone one can tell me what is the problem with those above 3 combats.

With one escort it can only cover one side. In the other there are 2 escorts to cover 6 big ships against 12 PT's. In every case above there is not enough escort ships even if there is no susprise.

Port edit: I see an issue with shell hits and heavy fires.

[Fishbed]

Why? PT's should be allowed to get where their range can puts them. If there are issues with fighting ability in high seas - Germans didn't had any problem with their S-boats neither the British with MGB's -link it to weather in the hex. The US PT boats in Med were modded with extra range fuel tanks.

Come out, now we're starting to compare a typhoon prone area or an Alaskan theater weather to the average Med climate, we're stretching the arguments here.... Not to mention the fact that I hardly believe you may find any spot in the Med which would be more than 300km from any continental land or large island - not to mention the small ones. Do people realize that Rabaul is 2500km away from Noumea in straight flight, 2100 from Espiritu Santo? That there is more distance between Guadalcanal and Vella Lavella than between any spot in the Mediterranean and any continental land?

I wonder how can we ever compare PTs to Schnellbooten: there is, to say the least, a 20 tons difference - closer to 40 tons if we are talking about early PT models here.

Again: please buddies check what happens to PTs in bad weather (aka the West Coast odyssey) and then come back so we can have a chat about how the PTs like rough seas! [:'(]

[MadmanRick]

Let us not forget the "PT boat remaining in a captured base hex" bug. I took Rangoon (and this is JUST one example) and the Allied PT boat TF remained there for weeks. It never ran out of fuel, despite there not being a friendly port within 11 hexes (and THAT through open ocean)! Mind you this screen shot is from at least a week AFTER (perhaps more, I don't remember) I had taken Rangoon.

[MadmanRick]

And lastly a detail shot of said PT TF, same time frame

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

However, PT's against AK's would be a very fair fight and the results above perfectly acheivable. Good call sending them in and the opponent will think again B4 sending unescorted AK's!

I'm beginning to wonder. I spent the last hour or so trolling the web looking for stats that would indicate PT Boat effectiveness, and my conclusion is that - the war on Barges excepted - they caused about as much damage as midget subs. Just try and find ANY proven, documented success against a large warship. Even one. They did have marvelous PR, but that should not translate over to in-game effectiveness. If the combat engine can't be tweaked to give them the heavy nerfing they so richly deserve, I'd recommend giving something akin to the "zero bonus" to Destroyers when facing PTs. Historically, even near misses would destroy these things.

Kull, from the strictly historical bent, one could argue that a lot of things in the WiTP/AE engine are ahistorical. Need we start the 'Betty' thread or the IJN aerial torpedo availability thread on CVLs?

Yes, compared with historical efficacy, PT boat effectiveness in AE seems to be greater. This explanation *could* be due to different historical uses / more aggressive theatre commanders (read: you), presence of ahistoric unescorted or lightly escorted invasion fleets to beat on, etc. I still think it's too early to "Nerf" the engine because of a handful of these tests against soft targets.

[Dili]

Come out, now we're starting to compare a typhoon prone area or an Alaskan theater weather to the average Med climate, we're stretching the arguments here.... Not to mention the fact that I hardly believe you may find any spot in the Med which would be more than 300km from any continental land or large island - not to mention the small ones. Do people realize that Rabaul is 2500km away from Noumea in straight flight, 2100 from Espiritu Santo? That there is more distance between Guadalcanal and Vella Lavella than between any spot in the Mediterranean and any continental land?

I wonder how can we ever compare PTs to Schnellbooten: there is, to say the least, a 20 tons difference - closer to 40 tons if we are talking about early PT models here.

Again: please buddies check what happens to PTs in bad weather (aka the West Coast odyssey) and then come back so we can have a chat about how the PTs like rough seas!

Well i am not advocating to fight at 2000km from base. PT's had fuel for what was tought their capable combat distance. And like you said the issue is weather not the coastal hexes. 300km for example is roughly 5 hexes so not coastal hexes in many places. In bad weather PT's can't operate that would be a good rule if possible to implement.

[Fishbed]

Yeah I'd like it better, no open sea by bad weather, but unfortunately there's not good way to check the weather... As you say anyway let them do it. But I guess that PT should get a lot of damage from weather, especially in open hex. This would force them to disband from time to time for something else than mere replenishment, for instance.

[crsutton]

Pt boats in AE are about the only real gripe I have. Playing the Allies vs the AI, I am finding them to be serious killers of just about any Japanese ship afloat. As said here earlier. They were great and useful boats but not much of a serious offensive threat, and really have very little sucess against larger ships. I am sure it is getting worked on as right now it is the only thing I have found that is no better than it was in AE. Perhaps they should just be removed from the game.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Pt boats in AE are about the only real gripe I have. Playing the Allies vs the AI, I am finding them to be serious killers of just about any Japanese ship afloat. As said here earlier. They were great and useful boats but not much of a serious offensive threat, and really have very little sucess against larger ships. I am sure it is getting worked on as right now it is the only thing I have found that is no better than it was in AE. Perhaps they should just be removed from the game.

Having done some of the testing, I can say that PT's have been "dialed back" for the first patch. One other thing to take into consideration here is that players seldom use these or any other asset in an historical manner, so "historical" results aren't as likely either. As several players keep pointing out, WITP is a game with a lot of player choices available. It's very unlikely you will see a "Midway" during play either..., but is that due to the game, or the fact that very few Japanese Players will get "victory fever" and make the historical mistakes?

[Xargun]

In my single PBeM my opponent has use PT Boats quite effectively against my landing forces in the PI. At first I thought I had the wrong escorts - mostly DDs.. But over the last couple turns I have had merchies ripped apart while the PBs and SCs stood there and watched. One engagement there was 2 merchies and 5 PBs and not a single hit was scored on the PTs, but all IJN ships were sunk. That was the last straw. All I can say is I hope they get looked at in the first patch.

Xargun

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

In my single PBeM my opponent has use PT Boats quite effectively against my landing forces in the PI. At first I thought I had the wrong escorts - mostly DDs.. But over the last couple turns I have had merchies ripped apart while the PBs and SCs stood there and watched. One engagement there was 2 merchies and 5 PBs and not a single hit was scored on the PTs, but all IJN ships were sunk. That was the last straw. All I can say is I hope they get looked at in the first patch.

Xargun

I'm fairly sure from memory that the PB crew experience is dismal. They are essentially merchants with depth charges crewed by civilians.

Poor escorts, no substitute for a DD.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
I'm fairly sure from memory that the PB crew experience is dismal. They are essentially merchants with depth charges crewed by civilians.

Poor escorts, no substitute for a DD.

My DDs got shredded weeks ago by the PTs too.

I really think that the damage potential on the 50-cal machine gun on ships should be looked at. A 50-cal should not be able to sink a merchie or DD (and up) sized ship. Kill crew - yes... Destroy some ship equipment - yes... start fires (which might kill the ship) - yes.. but real flotation damage - no.

Xargun

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Xargun
All I can say is I hope they get looked at in the first patch.

Xargun

They have been. If they show up by suprise while you are unloading they are still going to cause you problems..., but most of the time (in my testing) they are driven off or (in daylight) turn away. I'd suggest everyone wait for the patch to see what has been done before getting too involved in this subject.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

They have been. If they show up by suprise while you are unloading they are still going to cause you problems..., but most of the time (in my testing) they are driven off or (in daylight) turn away. I'd suggest everyone wait for the patch to see what has been done before getting too involved in this subject.

Great. And I am assuming this is a code change so no restart !!!! Between PTs and Fighters strafing my TFs my invasion of the Philippines is way behind schedule.

Xargun

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Pt boats in AE are about the only real gripe I have. Playing the Allies vs the AI, I am finding them to be serious killers of just about any Japanese ship afloat. As said here earlier. They were great and useful boats but not much of a serious offensive threat, and really have very little sucess against larger ships. I am sure it is getting worked on as right now it is the only thing I have found that is no better than it was in AE. Perhaps they should just be removed from the game.

Having done some of the testing, I can say that PT's have been "dialed back" for the first patch. One other thing to take into consideration here is that players seldom use these or any other asset in an historical manner, so "historical" results aren't as likely either. As several players keep pointing out, WITP is a game with a lot of player choices available. It's very unlikely you will see a "Midway" during play either..., but is that due to the game, or the fact that very few Japanese Players will get "victory fever" and make the historical mistakes?

I do know that they are working hard to make them better but if they continue to be used in the ahistorcial manner then perhaps they shoud just be done away with. Or perhaps some severe restrictions such as no reaction range or defensive patrols in their own hex only with a much reduced chance of intercept.

I like the idea of PTs and think that like subs are now they could be fun to play with especially fighting barge traffic but as they are now they are just plain spooky. [:D]

[Dili]

One engagement there was 2 merchies and 5 PBs and not a single hit was scored on the PTs, but all IJN ships were sunk. That was the last straw. All I can say is I hope they get looked at in the first patch.

Well if that was in daylight it is a real problem, even at night would very difficult to pull that off except is Japanese ships are surprised and have no time to make any rection before that torpedos hit. That example is not like those above that show PT's outnumbering 9 to 1 and 6 to 1 the escorts.