Supply Issue

[doomtrader]

I'm thinking about small revolution in the next patch (after 1.51).
As you might know, we have got MSS now, which deliver supply to all other cities. MSS suplly level is now 30, so it's also for every other connected city.
As soon as the city becomes cut off, units nerby to it, are using city own supply, which very often is lover than MSS level of supply.

What we are thinking to do is to decrease MSS level to something around 15-18 and slighly increase Own supply for some key cities. I think it will require more planning when capturing enemy cities.

But before we will change this it's going to need some tests, so don't expect this in upcoming patch (OTOH it's something what you can mod by yourselfes). However we would like to know your opinion about that.

[oldspec4]

I like the concept [8D]

[Joram]

Sounds alright.  I don't have a problem with the current system to be honest but tweaking it a bit is fine too.  Conceptually I just wonder how much you'd have to change it to really affect strategy?  Will be interested in the results.

[doomtrader]

Undoubtfully it's going to need a lot of tests.

[PitifulGrunt]

[quote]ORIGINAL: doomtrader

What we are thinking to do is to decrease MSS level to something around 15-18 and slighly increase Own supply for some key cities. I think it will require more planning when capturing enemy cities.



If we limit the MSS to 18, how would units ever recover from battle? Reinforcements are dependent on how much supply a unit gets right? With MSS at only 18, it would be terribly difficult to stay more than a couple hexes away from a city for any length of time.

I don't have any problem with the current supply system. I hope if tweaking is done, the overall system of supply retains the simplicity it has now.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

I'm thinking about small revolution in the next patch (after 1.51).
As you might know, we have got MSS now, which deliver supply to all other cities. MSS suplly level is now 30, so it's also for every other connected city.
As soon as the city becomes cut off, units nerby to it, are using city own supply, which very often is lover than MSS level of supply.

What we are thinking to do is to decrease MSS level to something around 15-18 and slighly increase Own supply for some key cities. I think it will require more planning when capturing enemy cities.

But before we will change this it's going to need some tests, so don't expect this in upcoming patch (OTOH it's something what you can mod by yourselfes). However we would like to know your opinion about that.

I don't understand. [&:]

AFAIK, the green zone (everything works a full effectiveness) now for supply is from 21-30. [&:]

If the MSS is 15-18, then the max MSS is 18, putting all units somewhat out of supply all the time. [&:]

Maybe I've playing poorly, but as it is now I pretty much already need to take every city. [&:]

[&:][&:][&:][&:][&:]

[gwgardner]

I don't understand the concept either.

If the max supply is set at 18, is that then full supply?

How would this change the importance of taking cities?

Please clarify.

[Mike Parker]

I have to say this isn't making sense as described to me either.  If 18 is the new full supply why bother changing it from 30.. if its NOT full supply.. how do you ever get full supply?  By hanging out around whatever you MSS is?  That seems silly to me.  Supply could use some tweaking, but overall it works pretty well at the moment.

[carnifex]

I thinks he's saying that Supply Value = MSS Supply Value + Other City value so if Berlin is 18 and Odessa is 8 then units will be at 26 and hence full supply. So if you capture a city that only has 2 supply then the supply will be 20 and it wont be enough. That's why you'll have to capture cities with a bigger Own supply value.

[doomtrader]

Now:
MSS is made to provide an amount of supply to every city that is connected with.
For example, Berlin has got 20 own supply but is MSS so it has got 30. Stettin has got 8 own supply but is connected with Berlin so it also has got level of supply at 30.
Now even if we will set amount of own supply for the city at 50, it will still has got supply not higher that the one generated by MSS.
But if we will change that rule, the city will be able to spread more supply than MSS delivers to.

So if we change that rule it's going to work this way (all values as examples)
Berlin has got own supply at 50
Stettin has got own supply at 8 and
Dresden has got own supply at 21
What is going to be done next is to set MSS value at 18
So after that if all cities are connected to MSS (and let's make a deal it's going to be located in Berlin), then we will have such values:
Berlin - 50
Stettin - 18
Dresden - 21

Thanks to that we can simulate real impact of the city on the supply delivered.


BTW: Of course MSS might be set up to 20, we can also change a little bit penalties for lack of supply. All those values are moddable.

[Uxbridge]

This was tricky, but I think I'm beginning to get it.

If the MSS is 18, all connected cities will have at least 18.
If the MSS is 18, all connected cities with a value higher than 18 will use its own intrinsic value.
If the MSS is 18, all non-connected cities will have its intrinsic value (or won't it?), that might be lower than 18.

I like it. Now all connected cities, regardless of size, location or infra-structural importance, boost 30 in supply. This can be changed to more realistic levels with this change. 

[dooya]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Now:
MSS is made to provide an amount of supply to every city that is connected with.
For example, Berlin has got 20 own supply but is MSS so it has got 30. Stettin has got 8 own supply but is connected with Berlin so it also has got level of supply at 30.
Now even if we will set amount of own supply for the city at 50, it will still has got supply not higher that the one generated by MSS.
But if we will change that rule, the city will be able to spread more supply than MSS delivers to.

So if we change that rule it's going to work this way (all values as examples)
Berlin has got own supply at 50
Stettin has got own supply at 8 and
Dresden has got own supply at 21
What is going to be done next is to set MSS value at 18
So after that if all cities are connected to MSS (and let's make a deal it's going to be located in Berlin), then we will have such values:
Berlin - 50
Stettin - 18
Dresden - 21

Thanks to that we can simulate real impact of the city on the supply delivered.


BTW: Of course MSS might be set up to 20, we can also change a little bit penalties for lack of supply. All those values are moddable.

With this system, cutting of a city like Dresden will have no impact on its supply, no matter if its connected to Berlin or not, it will have 21 supply, right? This seems not very realistic. How about letting cities with a supply higher than MSS have still a bonus from MSS.

For instance, let supply be computed as max(MMS, ownSupply+MMS/4).

Then we would have

Berlin - 50
Stettin - max(18, 8+4.5) = 18
Dresden - max(18, 21+4.5) = 25.5

when connected to Berlin and when not connected to Berlin, we would have:

Berlin - 50
Stettin - 8
Dresden - 21

Then cutting of a city would have an impact on city supply, and we would still have a simulation of the real impact of the city on the supply delivered.

[Mike Parker]

This is still not making sense to me, but it seems other people are seeing something.
 
In your example you said MSS=18  Stetin = 8 and Dresden = 21
 
In this case Supply from Berlin (your MSS) only matters for small cities like Stetin.  The tactic then will be to not care hardly at all for small cities, but rather to care about large cities such as Dresden. 

[Uxbridge]

ORIGINAL: dooya

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

With this system, cutting of a city like Dresden will have no impact on its supply, no matter if its connected to Berlin or not, it will have 21 supply, right? This seems not very realistic. How about letting cities with a supply higher than MSS have still a bonus from MSS.

For instance, let supply be computed as max(MMS, ownSupply+MMS/4).

Then we would have

Berlin - 50
Stettin - max(18, 8+4.5) = 18
Dresden - max(18, 21+4.5) = 25.5

when connected to Berlin and when not connected to Berlin, we would have:

Berlin - 50
Stettin - 8
Dresden - 21

Then cutting of a city would have an impact on city supply, and we would still have a simulation of the real impact of the city on the supply delivered.

Yes, this is rather good.

[doomtrader]

I like the idea dooya proposed, but we if we choose to do so we are going to complicate supply system more.
If we will do it like that, then I think we should make another step and diverse penalty for cities like Dresden. The more distance from MSS, the more lost by cutting off.

This again will go into the code and it will be a feature beyound modding.

If we will make just little change, it will be easier for modders to come back to change the game with their vison.

[dooya]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

[...9 The more distance from MSS, the more lost by cutting off.
[...]

Is this logical? From a naive point of view I would guess that it is exactly the other way around: the more distance is between a city and MSS, the more self-sufficient the city has to be. Supply is best if you are near to the MSS and when you get farther away from the MSS, your cities get less supply, but are -at the same time- more capable of taking care for themselves.

However, personally, I do not think that such a distance rule is really necessary.

[doomtrader]

It looks I was thinking other way around.

If we would like to implemet your bonus then we might got in trouble.
What if somebody decides he would like to have MSS set up on 40 and some cities to have 50 own supply points.
Then such a city will have 60 supply points.

[dooya]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

It looks I was thinking other way around.

If we would like to implemet your bonus then we might got in trouble.
What if somebody decides he would like to have MSS set up on 40 and some cities to have 50 own supply points.
Then such a city will have 60 supply points.

First of all, setting the MMS fraction to 4 was only an example for demonstration purpose without any specific reason. It could have been any other number as well. Maybe the specific fraction could be set by the modder, i.e., instead of hard-coding the fraction, you could introduce just another variable.

[doomtrader]

I know it was an example but I'm thinking loud how to do this

[MemoryLeak]

I don't understand supply now but with a few hundred hours of study there is always a possibility of it clicking, so please don't make it any more complicated.

I can't even get the darn replacements figured out. I have some units with a strength of one and it says they are topped out while others at 7 can be increased. I don't think it is supply because I am playing the Poland simple scenario and the units seem to have enought supply being next to cities.