PT Boats are awesome

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Panther Bait
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Panther Bait »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Some additional things that I would recommend JFBs consider:

1.  New game, new paradigm.  Improvise, adapt and overcome.  You *must* escort your ships with capable escorts.  If you are concerned about submarine attacks, ASW platforms such as subchasers or PBs may be sufficient.  Against PTs or other surface threats, SCs and PBs are insufficient.  If you have a high value asset (large LCU that you would like to land), you'd better protect it accordingly.  DDs in an escort role AS WELL AS attached surface combat escort may be necessary.  Sweep known PT sanctuaries with capable surface combat ships.

2.  PT boats thrive in the littorals where they can sneak in and deliver a punch at close range.  Or at least that's their theoretical strength.  Avoid these situations of strength for the PT.  Yes, that means that KB is at risk of surface intercept while winding its way through some narrow DEI strait, as IRL.  Avoid these bottlenecks where you can-heavily escort anything that moves through when it must.

3.  Try to time the unloading of your amphibious convoy to daylight hours.  Better to have your escorts engage the PTs during daylight hours at range rather than engage in a knife fight in the dark, as is the PT's want.

4.  Low-level PT hunting aircraft.  Sweep known PT sanctuaries with low-level strafing fighters.  The IJ forces will have air superiority locally almost everywhere and functional air supremacy in some areas in the first months of the war.  Use your superior AF to shoot up PTs.

5.  Select ships that can unload your LCUs faster in the danger zone.  It takes longer (and therefore the TF is in an exposed position of risk longer) to unload an cargo-loaded xAK than it does an amphibious-loaded AP on the beach.  Plan accordingly to get in, drop off and scoot before you make yourself a tempting target for a SCTF or PTs.

CB,

I'd say most of you points are very true, except maybe number 1. While it is of course critical to escort your transports if they are going into PT waters, the IJN can't start trading their limited DDs 1 for 1 with what is effectively an unlimited number of PTs, or even 1 DD for 5 PTs. And with PTs as they are now, sending even a dedicated SCTF of DDs against like numbers of PTs will almost certainly result in a few severely damaged or sunk DDs. And you probably won't even get all the PTs either. Even cruisers and BBs are likely to need a shipyard after every combat, and that is even more unsustainable for the IJN, especially when more PTs are usually just a button press and some supplies away. Or in other words, there aren't really any capable IJN surface ships, if capable means "clear out the PTs without little risk of catastrophic damage to ownship".

Anyway, those are my thoughts. PTs in my mind should be more of a "keep the other guy honest when operating in the area (i.e. no unescorted transports)", and not a credible surface combat task force against anything other than barges.

Should they get the occasional hit in on a DD? Absolutely. Could that damage sink a DD, sure.

Should they be regularly sinking DDs, i.e. one sunk DD for every 2 or 3 surface encounters which is common now? No way.

Mike

P.S. Others have mentioned reducing the PT crew's experience in the editor as a means to reduce their lethality, but I am pretty sure that I have read on the board that testing has shown that crew experience does not make a huge difference in surface combat. I think the testing may even have been done by one of the AE team. So crew XP might not be reliable means of nerfing PTs.
When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

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bradfordkay
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by bradfordkay »

Fishbed, I just want to make one comment about your argument. In general, a small craft would rather be far out to sea during a major storm than close inshore (unless it is safely anchored or docked in harbor). When you are close to shore during a storm, you can easily be blown aground and sunk by the wind and currents. When you are far out at sea, far away from any shore or shallows, you can ride out the storm in relative safety. It's a fact that astounds the average landsman (non-sailor), but is still a fact of life at sea in a small craft. 
fair winds,
Brad
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Nikademus
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

P.S. Others have mentioned reducing the PT crew's experience in the editor as a means to reduce their lethality, but I am pretty sure that I have read on the board that testing has shown that crew experience does not make a huge difference in surface combat. I think the testing may even have been done by one of the AE team. So crew XP might not be reliable means of nerfing PTs.

Experience will now matter in Surface Combat. I think most will like the toning down effect it has on PT's. We also added routines that allow PT's to evade/retreat from combat in daylight situations where high visibility gives the edge to a surface force that spots them.


Dili
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Dili »

Are you obtuous in the real life too, or is it just now? I mean, wasnt it clear I was mentionning going after the Dec 7 Kido Butai off Oahu or am I just plain stupid?
Fanboys, whatever they are dying for, are a plague, you just cant talk to them.
I am gonna wait for the patch and enjoy the ride, far away from both PT-haters and PT-masochists.

Talking about obtusness...am i supposed to guess your thinking now ? If we are talking about general principles when a part of discussion bring a specific case have to refer that.
Experience will now matter in Surface Combat. I think most will like the toning down effect it has on PT's. We also added routines that allow PT's to evade/retreat from combat in daylight situations where high visibility gives the edge to a surface force that spots them.

Good.A bit scary to learn that experience didn't matter before. A caveat that high visibility rule can make several numbers of PT's retire from only one ship even if it is a Merchant if i understand correctly the rule. It would be preferable - i don't know if that is possible- to make the TF retire when there is a hit in one of PT's, that way the PT's would react accordingly to the enemy real strenght.
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by John Lansford »

I'm finding that as damage starts adding up on my PT boats, their effectiveness continues to drop.  They are all deployed near Batavia right now to oppose the constant supply TF's headed for Java, but the # of ships they torpedo has dropped dramatically.  The AI now has those surface TF's with a CL and 4-6 DD's in them that engage my PT's and drive them away, sometimes several hexes from Batavia.  I think the last ship they torpedoed was an AK near Balikpapan a few weeks in game time ago.
Fishbed
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Fishbed »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Fishbed, I just want to make one comment about your argument. In general, a small craft would rather be far out to sea during a major storm than close inshore (unless it is safely anchored or docked in harbor). When you are close to shore during a storm, you can easily be blown aground and sunk by the wind and currents. When you are far out at sea, far away from any shore or shallows, you can ride out the storm in relative safety. It's a fact that astounds the average landsman (non-sailor), but is still a fact of life at sea in a small craft.

I watched Forrest Gump too don't worry [;)]
Im not saying that ships should stay by the coastline during a storm, I am not talking about stalking the coast - I am talking about the fact that you may send the PTs down the Slot, but you're not gonna send them in the middle of the Mariana trench. We're talking about 300km away at sea, not "go out and stay 6 miles away from the coast" - which I may understand in a place like the Solomons where no good port facilities were available, unlike in the Med - we may just check how many PTs were lost to beaching, but that's the majority of them AFAIK.
And, still, PTs are not the average small craft either, they got a little more legs than the average trawler too [;)]
26. Gameplay Change: Adjustments have been made to the routine steaming damage function to make it more difficult to keep PTs at sea for long periods. It was modified to accumulate considerable damage for PTs under extended steaming and also increase chances for major events (breakdowns, running aground or on reef, etc).
27. Gameplay Change: The React range for PT boat TFs has been restricted so that it may not be set higher than 1 hex.
28. Gameplay Change: To avoid high losses, PT TF's will now mostly evade/decline combat with enemy combat TFs during daylight hours.
Cool! Nothing to add to that, especially if the naval combat routines were revisited.
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Kull
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RE: PT Boats are awesome

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Dili

So now you put your head in sand. I posted about Med. In Med even a 3 Ton PT with one Torpedo put HMS Eridge as a total loss. The incompetence of US Navy in Pacific as no relation with S-boots and MAS boats of Germans and Italians. British MTB also had some successes.

Unfortunately, Fishbed is correct. You are being obtuse. The last time you brought up the Med, here was my response:
ORIGINAL: Kull

Nice try, but those weren't US PT Boats firing Mark 8 torpedoes with the US aiming system. It's like saying that since the IJN and USN both fielded submarines, the exploits of one are proof for the other. Prove to us that US PT Boats took out or severely damaged entire convoys with torpedoes in the Pacific.

But of course, you won't do that because the evidence proves otherwise. So now you are stuck with this:
You didn't explained why they failed as torpedos platforms. Many other countries had PT's that worked. Maybe training? Maybe Doutrine? Maybe issues with Torpedos? No for you it is the boats that have some bad mojo.

So analyzing three years worth of historical records isn't good enough is it? That those records prove that hundreds of PT Boats sank only a few handfuls of ships via torpedo in the various Pacific theatres, all that doesn't really matter, does it? No, I have to prove WHY they were unsuccessful?

Here's a nice exercise for you. While the rest of us are playing a game called "War in the Pacific" and focus our attention on the relative merits of the weapons platforms engaged in this theatre, you can go prove to us that the German and Italian "PT-Boats" really were so much better. How many sorties did they make over the course of the entire war? Total number of torpedoes fired? Ships sunk? I'll promise to do exactly that degree of research on EVERY Pacific War US PT Boat engagement in return. And then we'll see if the aggregate numbers really are so vastly different as you claim. Because I don't believe it.

So there's a challenge for you. I'll research this theatre, you do that one. Put up or shut up.
Dili
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Dili »

Im not saying that ships should stay by the coastline during a storm, I am not talking about stalking the coast - I am talking about the fact that you may send the PTs down the Slot, but you're not gonna send them in the middle of the Mariana trench. We're talking about 300km away at sea, not "go out and stay 6 miles away from the coast" - which I may understand in a place like the Solomons where no good port facilities were available, unlike in the Med - we may just check how many PTs were lost to beaching, but that's the majority of them AFAIK.
And, still, PTs are not the average small craft either, they got a little more legs than the average trawler too

A storm can be big at 300km from Coast or near it.
The issue with PT's is not storms( every ship is more or less innefective) but moderate weather like simple rain and waves(2m and >) too big for them operate effectively but not for DD's and other ships. When they start to loose the speed advantage and maneuverality is when they need to stop being employed.
sfbaytf
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by sfbaytf »

There is definitely a human element when operating a small craft like a PT far away from the shore-unless you have a death wish-which was not usually the case. You don't screw around with the sea or mother nature, even today with modern technology, let alone in 1941-1945 in a small PT boat.

They should be neutered in some way or another IMO. 
Fishbed
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RE: PT Boats are awesome

Post by Fishbed »

ORIGINAL: Kull
ORIGINAL: Dili

So now you put your head in sand. I posted about Med. In Med even a 3 Ton PT with one Torpedo put HMS Eridge as a total loss. The incompetence of US Navy in Pacific as no relation with S-boots and MAS boats of Germans and Italians. British MTB also had some successes.

I missed that one. That's laughable: the strike against HMS Eridge happened something like one or two clicks away from the Egyptian shore - the pilot of the craft even came back to the coast SWIMMING - and we're talking about a Decima MAS ops btw, wow that's so representative.
This is getting nowhere, and especially not towards good faith. I am out.
Dili
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Dili »

Unfortunately, Fishbed is correct. You are being obtuse. The last time you brought up the Med, here was my response:

Ah so 200 miles is code words for Pearl Harbor attack.
Nice try, but those weren't US PT Boats firing Mark 8 torpedoes with the US aiming system. It's like saying that since the IJN and USN both fielded submarines, the exploits of one are proof for the other. Prove to us that US PT Boats took out or severely damaged entire convoys with torpedoes in the Pacific.
You didn't explained why they failed as torpedos platforms. Many other countries had PT's that worked. Maybe training? Maybe Doutrine? Maybe issues with Torpedos? No for you it is the boats that have some bad mojo.

Funny my quote is similar to yours but you can't see it. I just added Training, Doutrine...

The problem is that when you say that MK.8 Torpedos are bad and i call that should be enough to change the settings of devices and crew before commiting to heavier fiddling you don't want that. You want to nerf the PT's just for the sake of being PT's not because US PT's had issues of their own. If the Games didn't had devices to tweak, crew to tweak and boat to tweak that would be explainable.

Kull: Mk8 Torpedos are bad. Dili: ok let's edit them. Kull: NO!
Kull: PT are bad Dili: Ok lets edit them, put less manuverality, range, whatever Kull: NO!
Kull: PT's didn't hit a thing Dili: Okay lets edit crew quality Kull: NO!

That is "obtusness".
Here's a nice exercise for you. While the rest of us are playing a game called "War in the Pacific" and focus our attention on the relative merits of the weapons platforms engaged in this theatre, you can go prove to us that the German and Italian "PT-Boats" really were so much better. How many sorties did they make over the course of the entire war? Total number of torpedoes fired? Ships sunk? I'll promise to do exactly that degree of research on EVERY Pacific War US PT Boat engagement in return. And then we'll see if the aggregate numbers really are so vastly different as you claim. Because I don't believe it.

I shown you what PT's can do in 4 Hours period when circunstances favour them. Italians sunk a British cruiser and damaged another British cruiser and a mere 3t Torpedo Boat hit a destroyer escort. The British had to make a crash developement of MGB to counter German PT's.

S-Boots against Destroyers:

23.05.1940 Jaguar Sunk in the Channel by S-Boats S21 and S23
31.05.1940 Sirocco sunk in the Channel by S-Boats S23 and S26
25.02.1941 Exmoor Sunk in the Channel by S-Boat S30
15.03.1942 Vortigern Sunk in the Channel by S-Boat S104
15.06.1942 Hasty Sunk in the Mediterranien by E-Boat S55
03.12.1942 Penylan Sunk in the Channel by E-Boat S115.
12.03.1943 Lightning Sunk in the Mediterranian by E-Boats S55 and S158
14.04.1943 Eskdale Sunk in the Channel by S-Boats S65 and S112
10.09.1943 (USS)Rowan Sunk in the Mediterranian by S-Boat.

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... royer.html

As one more testament on how things can wrong there is also the Slapton Sands disaster.
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John 3rd
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by John 3rd »

I simply HATE those damned PT Boats...
 
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by m10bob »

Not long after the war, Bulkely released his memoirs, and I remember him stating it was laughable that Hollywood portrayed the PT boats as a threat to enemy DD's, let alone cruisers, and he further mentioned the boats never got the speed up as designed, because once deployed in theatre, the hulls became encrusted with barnacles which slowed them down a lot.
He did say that their forte was against AK's and smaller enemy vessels, and the Japanese never deployed a comparable boat to engage them.

I have the Ian Allen book on Japanese ships, and indeed, the Japanese "patrol boats" are immensely inferior, in weapons, speed, and production.

Kennedy's PT boat had a purloined army 37mm AT gun, and this and other expedient weapons became the norm, and later models employed both 20mm and 40mm guns as stock(factory) equipment.
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Sardaukar »

Them not been so awesome for me after the Beta patch. [8D]
"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Them not been so awesome for me after the Beta patch. [8D]


IRL they worked great as the surface "eyes" for the night flying "Black Cat" units.
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tigercub
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by tigercub »

yes and they are to cheap in supply and so are the mini subs!

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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by bradfordkay »

"We're talking about 300km away at sea, not "go out and stay 6 miles away from the coast""
 
In a major storm, six miles is not near far enough - you can be blown that far in an hour or less by the winds.
 
The points I am trying to make here has little to do with the AE PT debate, but rather your portrayal of them as small craft which have to stay close inshore due to an unsuitability for use at sea. I would not want to experience a typhoon in a PT in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but I'd rather be 300 miles at sea in that PT boat (or 30 foot sailboat) than six miles offshore during that storm.
fair winds,
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Fallschirmjager
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Fallschirmjager »

So I will forever be known as the player who got PT boats nerfed [:(]
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by AttuWatcher »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
The points I am trying to make here has little to do with the AE PT debate, but rather your portrayal of them as small craft which have to stay close inshore due to an unsuitability for use at sea. I would not want to experience a typhoon in a PT in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but I'd rather be 300 miles at sea in that PT boat (or 30 foot sailboat) than six miles offshore during that storm.

Having seen firsthand what happens to small craft in the stormy Pacific, both near shore and at sea, I would prefer to be neither here nor there but safe and warm on dry land. [8D]

And yes, 30ft boats are perfectly capable of going out to sea if they meet a few basic requirements. I still wouldn't want to be in one.
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Fishbed
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RE: Trying a balanced approach.

Post by Fishbed »

The points I am trying to make here has little to do with the AE PT debate, but rather your portrayal of them as small craft which have to stay close inshore due to an unsuitability for use at sea. I would not want to experience a typhoon in a PT in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but I'd rather be 300 miles at sea in that PT boat (or 30 foot sailboat) than six miles offshore during that storm.

No I portray them as small craft which shouldn't be deployed in case of bad weather, close to the shore or not. Again, my main concern is the safety of the crews, and that was probably the very main reason why the HQ was never keen on having them crossing large distances by themselves. This didn't work on the way to Alaska, it worked between PH and Midway with pit-stops all along the way, and the Palau-Philippines expedition was possible thanks to some ships travelling with them. Again in my HR I would allow for trans-deep ocean transfers, but only if accompanied or on hops between islands with support ships, but I will certainly not allow for mid-ocean intercepts 300km away from the coast, especially if the PTs have to come back paddling.

I guess one of the solutions here does win my vote: the increased sys damage the longer the PTs stay at sea sounds good to me. Just like planes, they just can't keep on buzzing around 24/7 with no consequence whatsoever to their availability. That would oblige us players to get them out for given ops, but not on a perpetual basis, even when they patrol outside their port.
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