Surface combat - still needs some tweaking

[medicff]

So far just a few battles, however...

3 SC vs transports in daytime = 2 out of 3 transport tf avoid combat. Still needs more checking to see how often this happens.

2 SC vs SC
See results below. POW and repulse vs CL's and the only hits the POW got were AA guns nothing significant with many shots fired both sides. Good tf commander, Good naval skills british, allied crossed T. should be a little more one sided the OTHER way.

#2 BB vs CL and hardly any scratches either side..

Some more tweaking IMHO however I will continue to check results to get a better data group.



Night Time Surface Combat, near Salajar at 66,107, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Nagara, Shell hits 4
CL Kiso
DD Mikazuki
DD Akikaze

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 8
BC Repulse
DD Vampire, Shell hits 1
DD Tenedos, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Thracian



Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 10% moonlight: 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 7,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 7,000 yards
Palliser, Arthur FE crosses the 'T'
CL Nagara engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akikaze at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages CL Nagara at 2,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages CL Nagara at 2,000 yards
DD Thracian engages DD Akikaze at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages DD Tenedos at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages DD Vampire at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
CL Kiso engages BB Prince of Wales at 5,000 yards
CL Nagara engages DD Tenedos at 5,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Thracian at 5,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Mikazuki at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
CL Kiso engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards
CL Nagara engages BC Repulse at 7,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Thracian at 7,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages DD Vampire at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
BB Prince of Wales engages CL Kiso at 10,000 yards
CL Nagara engages BC Repulse at 10,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Vampire at 10,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Tenedos at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Ambon at 76,109, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
CL Natori, Shell hits 1
DD Minazuki
DD Sanae

Allied Ships
CL Java
CL Danae, Shell hits 1
CL Durban
DD Van Nes



Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 10% moonlight: 9,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 7,000 yards
Japanese open fire on surprised Allied ships at 7,000 yards
CL Natori launches Long Lance Torpedoes at CL Durban at 7,000 yards
DD Sanae launches Torpedoes at CL Durban at 7,000 yards
DD Sanae fires at DD Van Nes at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Durban at 2,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Danae at 2,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Van Nes at 2,000 yards
DD Van Nes engages DD Sanae at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
BB Haruna engages CL Danae at 5,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Danae at 5,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Van Nes at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Durban at 10,000 yards
CL Danae engages CL Natori at 10,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Java at 10,000 yards
DD Minazuki engages DD Van Nes at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...

[Dili]

From distance i bet the cruiser forces had speed advantage so when they were fired they retreated from combat.

Edit: this also depends what orders had both forces.

[Q-Ball]

I have no problem with inconclusive combats; there are many ways IRL, sudden fogs, visibility, wrong turns, etc, that two TF's could lightly engage then break off, particularly at night.

[oldman45]

I have a problem when a BB can't hit a CL at 7k. I think that part of the combat routine needs a look at. In my game the BB's can't hit anything.

[Dili]

I have a problem when a BB can't hit a CL at 7k.

That depends how many times it fired. Or do you think that is automatic?

[Erik Rutins]

Frankly, it's just too small a sample size to conclude anything. I appreciate the feedback though, we'll be watching to see what kind of results folks are seeing.

[oldman45]

I have to admit that I am feeling a bit lazy. Somebody smarter than me can make a guess of how long the ships were engaged by using the starting range and figuring out how long it took to move from 7k to 2k back to 10k. At those ranges from the time the main guns on the BB fired to the time of impact, the target could not move far enough to avoid being hit, assuming that the gun crews can see the target.

Lets say the BB's fired once a minute, i would guess that at those ranges they would hit with the main guns once or twice. In fact for such a close action there is some pretty bad shooting on both sides.

[Dili]

You are right. I didn't looked at that. Yes it seems one more strange thing in surface combat. The only thing it could have happen is if the TF is badly out of place and a ship from same side was in front of BB but that is probably streching things too much if this happens often.

[sfbaytf]

I'm no expert in WW2 naval gunnery, but 7000 to 2000 yards sounds like "bumper to bumper" when it comes to the main guns of a battleship. I would think the low angle fire control system would play a big role in accuracy.

Also this engagement took place at night. 7000 yards is appx 4 miles. The maximum stated visibility is 8000 yards.

Hard to say...

[EwingNJ]

Or the BB was masked by friendly vessels, or the TF commander, based on his interpretation of the mission ordered the BB to hold fire so as not to compromise its position (sounds stupid, I know, but review the actions around Guadalcanal and you will see some strange orders issued, strange until you grasp the TF commanders mind-set and interpretation of orders and mission intent combined with available material).
 
Fact is, small sample, surface combat is chaotic (I wish someone would tell me who is shooting and what they are shooting at.  Jellicoe at Jutland)

[sfbaytf]

There is also many other things occurring that aren't in reports. Did some of the ships lay down a smoke screen? A common tactic. 

[medicff]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Frankly, it's just too small a sample size to conclude anything. I appreciate the feedback though, we'll be watching to see what kind of results folks are seeing.

I agree Erik too small a sample. If this is the odd man out that is great news. I will keep eye on it and hope to give some more feedback. Both tf were SC to induce combat and I am sure the AI was defensive specifically to stop those repeated attacks on its landings.

The subs contacts are the same, but successful attacks and outcomes decreased. I think to a very nice level. Again still small sample. Keep you posted. [:D]

[PzB74]

Managed to run a small CV TF into 4 ancient US destroyers.
This time the escort beat up the destroyers, landing 14" hits...so something has improved! [:)]

Only strange thing was that destroyers closed in to 1000 yards in daylight and peppered the cvl.
Weather was poor though, but nothing was said about surprise being achieved.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Manado at 76,98, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho, Shell hits 6, on fire
CVE Hosho
CS Chiyoda, Shell hits 2
BB Ise, Shell hits 4
BB Hyuga
DD Wakatake
DD Kuretake, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Sanae

Allied Ships
DD Barker, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
DD Bulmer, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DD Paul Jones, Shell hits 2
DD Stewart, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

Low visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 20,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
DD Stewart engages CVL Zuiho at 1,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages CVL Zuiho at 1,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Stewart at 1,000 yards
DD Kuretake engages DD Bulmer at 1,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Wakatake at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
DD Stewart engages CVL Zuiho at 2,000 yards
DD Kuretake engages DD Paul Jones at 2,000 yards
DD Kuretake engages DD Bulmer at 2,000 yards
DD Barker sunk by BB Ise at 2,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Wakatake at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
DD Stewart engages CVL Zuiho at 6,000 yards
DD Kuretake engages DD Paul Jones at 6,000 yards
DD Wakatake engages DD Bulmer at 6,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Stewart at 6,000 yards
DD Kuretake engages DD Bulmer at 6,000 yards
DD Wakatake engages DD Bulmer at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
DD Wakatake engages DD Stewart at 9,000 yards
DD Wakatake engages DD Bulmer at 9,000 yards
DD Stewart engages CS Chiyoda at 9,000 yards
Dockery, L.R. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 12,000 yards
CVL Zuiho , CVE Hosho screened from combat
- escorted by DD Kuretake
BB Hyuga engages DD Stewart at 12,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Stewart at 12,000 yards
DD Stewart engages CS Chiyoda at 12,000 yards
DD Sanae engages DD Paul Jones at 12,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Wakatake at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 18,000 yards
CVL Zuiho , CVE Hosho , CS Chiyoda screened from combat
- escorted by DD Sanae
DD Bulmer sunk by BB Hyuga at 18,000 yards
DD Wakatake engages DD Paul Jones at 18,000 yards
Range increases to 22,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Paul Jones at 22,000 yards
Range increases to 26,000 yards
CVL Zuiho , CVE Hosho , CS Chiyoda screened from combat
- escorted by DD Kuretake
BB Hyuga engages DD Stewart at 26,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Paul Jones at 26,000 yards
Range increases to 29,000 yards
CVL Zuiho , CVE Hosho , CS Chiyoda screened from combat
- escorted by DD Kuretake
BB Hyuga engages DD Stewart at 29,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Stewart at 29,000 yards
Japanese Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

[sfbaytf]

It would be interesting to see a test run with the same initial setup and add separate screening forces set to surface combat.

Then for kicks change the leaders and see what the results are.

Don't carrier task forces usually operate with screening task forces?

A screening force may be as small as 2 DD's or if circumstances permit have more ships as well as CA's and CL's. They may die, but their task is to screen and warn the main force.

In game terms an attacking force will have to burn up a round or 2 in combat with the screening force, before hitting your carriers.

I just want to throw this out there as food for thought. Sometimes the combat system isn't as broke as you think, but the way you employ your forces affects how the combat system spits out results.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

At those ranges from the time the main guns on the BB fired to the time of impact, the target could not move far enough to avoid being hit, assuming that the gun crews can see the target.

Lets say the BB's fired once a minute, i would guess that at those ranges they would hit with the main guns once or twice. In fact for such a close action there is some pretty bad shooting on both sides.

Bismark was engadged at point blank and missed quite a few times so the time on target is critical.

ssuming that the gun crews can see the target

A big if at night. It is quite possible that the cruiser got the first hits in and shot out the search lights this happened in a number of battles. Then your firing star shells or relying on other ships to spot the target.

[tigercub]

I would like to see your info on Bismark missing at point blank range i say this is rubbish!


Tiger!

[John Lansford]

Well I'd like it if the AI's BB's in my campaign weren't as accurate.  I reran a surface battle twice between ABDA (1 CA, 4 CL's, 9 DD's) vs a TF consisting of 1 BB, 1 CA and 2 DD's.  The first battle was in daytime and started at 21,000 yards; no one hit anything until ABDA got to within 12000 yards, at which point Hyuga shot Houston to pieces, riddled Marblehead's superstructure, punctured Durban's hull and damaged Boise.  My ships closed even further, fired torpedoes (none hit vs Houston got a torpedo for her trouble, sank), then tried to withdraw.  Hyuga continued hitting the remaining cruisers, sinking Marblehead and further damaging Durban and Boise before they could disengage.  Hyuga was hit numerous times by Boise (of course), the other AI ships were undamaged.

I reran the battle and set up the engagement time so that ABDA would reach the TF at night (they were in Davao harbor), and the battle began at 9000 yards distance.  Hyuga and Chikuma got hits immediately on Houston and Durban, knocking the CA out of the fight without even firing a shot.  ABDA closed to 2000 yards and fired torpedoes, still none hit, took more damage from Hyuga and Chikuma, and ended up losing Boise, Houston, Durban and 2 DD's.  Again the AI's ships took minimal damage.  I'll have to check my TF leader but it wasn't Doorman; I had selected someone for aggressiveness and capability from the USN's list (Houston was flagship).

[oldman45]

The only problem I have with the surface routine is the inability of BB's to hit something with their main guns, other than that it "feels" right.

[Marty A]

ORIGINAL: medicff

Night Time Surface Combat, near Salajar at 66,107, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Nagara, Shell hits 4
CL Kiso
DD Mikazuki
DD Akikaze

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 8
BC Repulse
DD Vampire, Shell hits 1
DD Tenedos, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Thracian



Reduced sighting due to 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 10% moonlight: 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 7,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 7,000 yards

Palliser, Arthur FE crosses the 'T'

CL Nagara engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards
DD Akikaze engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards
DD Vampire engages DD Akikaze at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards

UK in tactical good position and scores no hits. no masking problem with jap ships they shoot ok but only 1 uk ship shoots. needs work.

[Scott_USN]

How much tweaking? Until ALlied ships are sent back to home bases?

Day Time Surface Combat, near Tandjoengselor at 68,92, Range 6,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 3
CA Kumano, Shell hits 8
DD Nokaze
DD Namikaze, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 25, and is sunk
CL Marblehead, Shell hits 9, heavy fires
CL Boise, Shell hits 7, on fire
DD Barker, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Bulmer, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
DD Paul Jones, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
DD Parrott, Shell hits 1
DD Stewart, Shell hits 2, heavy fires



Low visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 13,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 6,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 6,000 yards
Tanaka, Kikumatsu crosses the 'T'
CA Houston engages CA Kumano at 6,000 yards
DD Stewart engages DD Nokaze at 6,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Namikaze at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 2,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Stewart at 2,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Stewart at 2,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Paul Jones at 2,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Namikaze at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
CA Houston engages CA Kumano at 7,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Houston at 7,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Marblehead at 7,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Bulmer at 7,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Nokaze at 7,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Bulmer at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
CA Houston engages CA Kumano at 10,000 yards
CA Houston engages CA Suzuya at 10,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Namikaze at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Paul Jones at 10,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Namikaze at 10,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Namikaze at 10,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Namikaze at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Barker at 10,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CA Houston at 13,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 13,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Paul Jones at 13,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Nokaze at 13,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Parrott at 13,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Paul Jones at 13,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Bulmer at 13,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Namikaze at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
CA Houston engages CA Kumano at 11,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CA Houston at 11,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Namikaze at 11,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Stewart at 11,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Parrott at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CA Houston at 9,000 yards
CA Houston sunk by CA Suzuya at 9,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Marblehead at 9,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Stewart at 9,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Paul Jones at 9,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Bulmer at 9,000 yards
Riker, K.I. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 10,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 10,000 yards
CL Boise engages CA Suzuya at 10,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Stewart at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Parrott at 10,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Bulmer at 10,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Namikaze at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 9,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Boise at 9,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Parrott at 9,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Paul Jones at 9,000 yards
DD Paul Jones engages DD Namikaze at 9,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Bulmer at 9,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Barker at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 13,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Marblehead at 13,000 yards
DD Namikaze engages DD Barker at 13,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Nokaze at 13,000 yards
DD Bulmer engages DD Nokaze at 13,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Barker at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 15,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Marblehead at 15,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Stewart at 15,000 yards
DD Parrott engages DD Nokaze at 15,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Bulmer at 15,000 yards
DD Barker engages DD Namikaze at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 17,000 yards
CL Boise engages CA Kumano at 17,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Marblehead at 17,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Stewart at 17,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Parrott at 17,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Paul Jones at 17,000 yards
DD Nokaze engages DD Barker at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 19,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Marblehead at 19,000 yards
DD Paul Jones sunk by CA Kumano at 19,000 yards
CA Kumano engages DD Bulmer at 19,000 yards
CA Kumano engages DD Barker at 19,000 yards
Tanaka, Kikumatsu orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range increases to 22,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Boise at 22,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Marblehead at 22,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages DD Parrott at 22,000 yards
DD Bulmer sunk by CA Suzuya at 22,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages DD Barker at 22,000 yards
Range increases to 26,000 yards
CL Boise engages CA Kumano at 26,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages CL Marblehead at 26,000 yards
CA Kumano engages DD Stewart at 26,000 yards
Range increases to 30,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Boise at 30,000 yards
CA Kumano engages CL Marblehead at 30,000 yards
Task forces break off...