I am playing the GC as Allied player against the AI, it is now early january 1942, Singapoore is holding but japanese forces are two hexes north of the city. I decided to make a major commitment and try to hold Rangoon. Over the past month I shipped in troops from India while the AVG kept the port open. So far I have gathered 1900 AP's and keep shipping in units.
The reason I decided to hold Rangoon was that if I succeed it saves me a lot of time once the tide turns since I don't have to snail march my troops down from India then. Instead I already have access to the rail network in Burma which should speed reconquest up quite a bit. Initially I wanted to hold Pegu for obvious reasons but then went for Rangoon instead. I needed good fortifications, a better port for shipping in troops and a bigger airfield so that I can protect my ships and eventually station strategic bombers there and spreading around my few engineers would have slowed down construction too much. I am not terribly concerned about beeing outflanked since I need to ship everything down there anyway. As long as my fighters can keep the port open I should be fine.
I have two questions:
- When do I have to expect the japanese army to move north and attack Rangoon (so far only southern coastal Burma is in japanese hands which was basically undefended anyway).
- What will the AI throw at me in terms of aussault value.
If I get routed in Rangoon I am in deep, deep trouble since I will lose loads of units during the long retreat north, delaying a possible counter offensive for a long time.
what does it take to hold Rangoon? Update: Victory at Pegu
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
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Speedy Gonzales
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
It was possible in WiTP to hold Rangoon against the AI with major effort. But it can also be very disasterous since all forces there are destroyed in a defeat. I just am not sure about AE.
" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Because road lines are not good between Thailand and Burma, the Japanese can only attack Rangoon by end january at the very earliest with 2 Divisions + some additional forces
--> Expect AV around 1000 (except if he moved some troops originally devoted to Malaya to Burma).
If you take into account the bonus granted by fortifications + Terrain + HQ (assuming you will manage to have this one), I think 1900 Av should be enough as long as you can supply Rangoon.
And that's the point: Southern coastal Burma has several good airports, and Japanese could be able to prevent any shipping if he wants to (by committing a lot of Bettys/Nells).
This is true until the fall of Singapore. Then you could face in addition the entire 25th Army and with this additional one, I think Rangoon will fall with certainly heavy losses for both sides.
--> Expect AV around 1000 (except if he moved some troops originally devoted to Malaya to Burma).
If you take into account the bonus granted by fortifications + Terrain + HQ (assuming you will manage to have this one), I think 1900 Av should be enough as long as you can supply Rangoon.
And that's the point: Southern coastal Burma has several good airports, and Japanese could be able to prevent any shipping if he wants to (by committing a lot of Bettys/Nells).
This is true until the fall of Singapore. Then you could face in addition the entire 25th Army and with this additional one, I think Rangoon will fall with certainly heavy losses for both sides.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
sval makes a good point. If the AI wants to, it can bring more to force bear at Rangoon at that point in the war than the Allies can. IF it makes a big effort, and you have committed major forces there and lose, then you may very well forfeit all of Burma including Imphal, etc. And that could end up effecting China. So interesting choice.
" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley
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Speedy Gonzales
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
And that's the point: Southern coastal Burma has several good airports, and Japanese could be able to prevent any shipping if he wants to (by committing a lot of Bettys/Nells).
So far I still control the airspace over Rangoon. In the beginning the AI flew lots of attacks on my convois but sort of stopped doing so. The AVG is weakened but still fighting, inflicting high losses on the occasional attack that is flown on Rangoon. In late december I pulled out all air assets out of Singapore since they were getting overwhelmed by japanese air. I evacuated them to the DEI and shipped them out. They are about to be disembarked in Madras from where I will move them to Rangoon to reinforce the AVG. Whith the few Hurricanes that I started to get from Europe I am confident I can hold Rangoons port open (at least agianst the AI).
1000 AP's doesn't sound really scary. Singapore I am afraid will fall sooner than later and the entire 25th army does sound scary. I will keep reinforcing Rangoon, by the end of january I should have 2500 AP's in Rangoon. I am commited now anyway, I won't just pull out now. I will keep you posted how it went [:D]
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
I just hope for your sake, if you have 1900 AV in Burma, that the AI doesn't go and land at Madras. [;)]
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Speedy Gonzales
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
ORIGINAL: EUBanana
I just hope for your sake, if you have 1900 AV in Burma, that the AI doesn't go and land at Madras. [;)]
Which is exactly why I would never follow this strategy against a human player.
Should the AI land in Madras then I am trouble. India though is not completely without troops so should the AI really land in Madras I should be able to solve this situation.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
ORIGINAL: Speedy Gonzales
So far I still control the airspace over Rangoon.
Overhead Rangoon for sure, but I have doubts in open sea since your hurricanes have very short legs and I doubt you will be able to provide air cover for the last 2 days of navigation (unless you put 2 CVs with each convoy). [;)]
ORIGINAL: Speedy Gonzales
I will keep you posted how it went [:D]
Yes please, I cannot wait to know what will happen [:D]
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Speedy Gonzales
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
ORIGINAL: sval
Overhead Rangoon for sure, but I have doubts in open sea since your hurricanes have very short legs and I doubt you will be able to provide air cover for the last 2 days of navigation (unless you put 2 CVs with each convoy). [;)]
I don't have Hurricanes there yet, just the AVG and some Brewsters and they actually did a pretty good job protecting the convoys. I set them to 70% LRCap and set the aproaching comvoys as the target to protect. I did lose a ship here and there in the beginning but the AI suffered pretty high losses in those air attacks and after a while slowly ceased to attack my convoys. So atm, as ships sail down the coast from the north, I can protect.
Yes please, I cannot wait to know what will happen [:D]
I will let you know, might just take a while since I am a very slow player. Took me two weeks to play the first ingame month.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
ORIGINAL: sval
ORIGINAL: Speedy Gonzales
So far I still control the airspace over Rangoon.
Overhead Rangoon for sure, but I have doubts in open sea since your hurricanes have very short legs and I doubt you will be able to provide air cover for the last 2 days of navigation (unless you put 2 CVs with each convoy). [;)]
ORIGINAL: Speedy Gonzales
I will keep you posted how it went [:D]
Yes please, I cannot wait to know what will happen [:D]
Please do, I love the chance to put holes in Allied CVs. [:D]
In all honesty Rangoon is not worth defending for either side. Which is why in the real war, both sides abondoned Rangoon with the approach of enemy forces...Rangoon is a surrender trap both in game and in life.
Distant Worlds Fan
'When in doubt...attack!'
'When in doubt...attack!'
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Do look at the quality of that 1900 AV, a lot of the troops in Burma are low quality and I'm sure at least part of the brigades in India are as well.
The AE-Wiki, help fill it out
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
I'm pursuing a similar strategy, though I don't feel that defending in Rangoon is the best option. I will try to defend in the jungle hex that is between Pegu and Moulmein. This hex is in jungle and the hexside the japanese will have to cross is a river. My biggest concerns are the reduced ability to build fortifications, and malaria. Its Dec 27th in my game.
If anyone could prove that defending in Rangoon is a better idea though, I would be quite willing to hear what they have to say.
If anyone could prove that defending in Rangoon is a better idea though, I would be quite willing to hear what they have to say.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
I suppose almost anything (anything but phi and sin) can be retained against an AI ....but as a plan it sound terrible to me.
Even if japan does not want "bengal adventures" in madras, a short ledge landing up the coast will efectively aislate rangoon from india, rangoon´s port is only too easy to close and its not even in a good position to deny acces to the frontier/burma road. it can be easily encircled, making a perfect pow camp.
Even if japan does not want "bengal adventures" in madras, a short ledge landing up the coast will efectively aislate rangoon from india, rangoon´s port is only too easy to close and its not even in a good position to deny acces to the frontier/burma road. it can be easily encircled, making a perfect pow camp.
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Speedy Gonzales
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Even if japan does not want "bengal adventures" in madras, a short ledge landing up the coast will efectively aislate rangoon from india, rangoon´s port is only too easy to close and its not even in a good position to deny acces to the frontier/burma road. it can be easily encircled, making a perfect pow camp.
This all makes perfect sense against a human player. If I played japan in this situation I would simply run fighter sweeps over Rangoon for a week or two and then sink every single ship trying to enter the port. The AI hasn't flown a single fighter sweep against the city yet, only escorted bomber attacks and while they did some damage at times, the AI suffered high losses in planes and could not close the port.
Against a human player I would never try to hold Rangoon. Against the AI it is different. I am not worried about getting bypassed or having the city isolated from India since I believe I can keep the port open. It would have been nicer to hold the whole of northern Burma but I need that port in Rangoon and it is easier to turn one place into a fortress instead of two. My main objektive is not to keep japan out of Burma but two have a base on the Burma rail network. This will hopefully speed up my reconquista of Burma, Malaysia and Singapore by half a year once I get sufficient reinforcments to launch a counter offensive. Again, I would never try this against a human player but against the AI it seemed worth a try.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Hi. I'm currently playing Allies v AI in the scenario starting Dec 8th. I've reached Sept 42, and thought you might like to consider my experience of the campaign in Burma. The defence of Rangoon, over a 3 month period, has been my best ever wargaming blast in 40 yrs, and I'd recommend it.
Knowing what really happened in Malaya, I decided from the outset to concentrate on trying to hold Rangoon. I think there are valid strategic reasons for doing so as it gives a great launch platform for later offensives if it works!
Firstly, I established India's needs, and made sure they were adequately met in terms of garrison. The majority of naval assets were held as a protective force, including the units from Malaya. Having made no attempt to defend Malaya, I had evacuated base forces and air assets as far as possible; not a lot.
I decided the main line of defence would be at the river crossing at Pegu, with a delaying action at Moulmein. I started immediately war broke out to fortify the line Pego-Toungoo, to prevent flanking of the main defences, and built up a force at Moulmein to delay the enemy. The core of the defence was the 18th Div, dug in on the river banks at Pegu, with Indian brigades at Moulmein and Pegu and holding the river line to the North. I also strengthened Port Blair as a flank protection and warning outpost.
Japs took Moulmein after over 2 weeks of attacks, which bought me the time I needed. By the time they reached the river, I had 850AV dug in behind level 4 forts. 10 consecutive days of assaults thrown back from the river, with Jap losses averaging 4-5000 each time. It got close early on, with a couple of assaults at 1 to 1, but the line held. The air battle was fierce, and the naval campaign was eerily like the Guadalcanal campaign in the real world. In one night battle, Kongo and Haruna turned up to bombard Pegu and were met at close range by a well led force of RN cruisers and DDs. Haruna went down to 3 torpedoes. KB put in an appearance in the Indian ocean, raided Ceylon and then visited Rangoon on the way home but to no avail.
The land battle proceeded to the point where I counter attacked the Japanese army, drove them back from the river, captured Moulmein and surrounded the remnants between Moulmein and Rahaeng, where they were wiped out. 5 Jap divisions and 8 or 9 other units destroyed. Assorted attempts have been made since to reinvade at Pegu, but all have been wiped out either at sea or on land.
I'm now in Sept 42. I have a heavily defended line running E-W from 2 hexes south of Moulmein- south of Rahaeng, holding both the roads down to the isthmus.
Tavoy is weakly defended, and so is Bangkok. I have enough air to defend my position, but not enough for a major offensive, although bombers are pounding airfields at Tavoy and Bangkok.
The big question is: when do I go on the offensive?
One thing I'll guarantee; whether you hold Rangoon or not, you'll have a great time trying.
Knowing what really happened in Malaya, I decided from the outset to concentrate on trying to hold Rangoon. I think there are valid strategic reasons for doing so as it gives a great launch platform for later offensives if it works!
Firstly, I established India's needs, and made sure they were adequately met in terms of garrison. The majority of naval assets were held as a protective force, including the units from Malaya. Having made no attempt to defend Malaya, I had evacuated base forces and air assets as far as possible; not a lot.
I decided the main line of defence would be at the river crossing at Pegu, with a delaying action at Moulmein. I started immediately war broke out to fortify the line Pego-Toungoo, to prevent flanking of the main defences, and built up a force at Moulmein to delay the enemy. The core of the defence was the 18th Div, dug in on the river banks at Pegu, with Indian brigades at Moulmein and Pegu and holding the river line to the North. I also strengthened Port Blair as a flank protection and warning outpost.
Japs took Moulmein after over 2 weeks of attacks, which bought me the time I needed. By the time they reached the river, I had 850AV dug in behind level 4 forts. 10 consecutive days of assaults thrown back from the river, with Jap losses averaging 4-5000 each time. It got close early on, with a couple of assaults at 1 to 1, but the line held. The air battle was fierce, and the naval campaign was eerily like the Guadalcanal campaign in the real world. In one night battle, Kongo and Haruna turned up to bombard Pegu and were met at close range by a well led force of RN cruisers and DDs. Haruna went down to 3 torpedoes. KB put in an appearance in the Indian ocean, raided Ceylon and then visited Rangoon on the way home but to no avail.
The land battle proceeded to the point where I counter attacked the Japanese army, drove them back from the river, captured Moulmein and surrounded the remnants between Moulmein and Rahaeng, where they were wiped out. 5 Jap divisions and 8 or 9 other units destroyed. Assorted attempts have been made since to reinvade at Pegu, but all have been wiped out either at sea or on land.
I'm now in Sept 42. I have a heavily defended line running E-W from 2 hexes south of Moulmein- south of Rahaeng, holding both the roads down to the isthmus.
Tavoy is weakly defended, and so is Bangkok. I have enough air to defend my position, but not enough for a major offensive, although bombers are pounding airfields at Tavoy and Bangkok.
The big question is: when do I go on the offensive?
One thing I'll guarantee; whether you hold Rangoon or not, you'll have a great time trying.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Forgot to add; supply level is a major factor. I got the build up fast and early, before the Japs had air established and were busy in the South. Throughout, Rangoon, Pegu and Moulmein have been over 125000 supply between them, and its a major factor as the Japs extend their supply lines north. Bombing and bombarding Moulmein after they took it helped a lot as well. Early on, the AVG based in Rangoon gave me enough local superiority to bring stuff in by sea. Harder later when the Japs have moved air assets forward.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Out of curiousity, assuming that the Allies do not make an attempt to halt the Japanese army at Rangoon and get thrown out of Burma, is it possible for the Japanese to launch a full scale invasion of India? How much AV and airpower would they need? What is the Allied strength in the Indian frontier?
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Jonathan Pollard
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
In regular WITP it definitely was possible, maybe it's somewhat more difficult in AE.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
ORIGINAL: fcam1387
Out of curiousity, assuming that the Allies do not make an attempt to halt the Japanese army at Rangoon and get thrown out of Burma, is it possible for the Japanese to launch a full scale invasion of India? How much AV and airpower would they need? What is the Allied strength in the Indian frontier?
Highly doubtful. There's no way to supply a land invasion and there's not enough transport for a sea invasion.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
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Speedy Gonzales
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Hi. I'm currently playing Allies v AI in the scenario starting Dec 8th. I've reached Sept 42, and thought you might like to consider my experience of the campaign in Burma. The defence of Rangoon, over a 3 month period, has been my best ever wargaming blast in 40 yrs, and I'd recommend it.
Thanks for your inspiring post. It made me move my defence forward to Pegu. [;)]
I really liked the Burma campaign in WitP but since I played the Guadalcanal to 1945 campaign, I had to march my troops all the way down from India. Not this time! I want action in Burma now! [:D]