Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

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TheElf
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Peever
TheElf:
Can you imagine the outcry from the other 99.9% of the community if we changed rates to anything other than historical levels? All in favor....?

As much as I personally would like to see different productions levels I concede there would be no way to get a consensus as to what they would be other than historical. That's why I'm grateful the game includes a great editor so I can tweak little things here and there to suit my own play style ,or create truly ludicrous "what-if" scenarios.

at the risk of sounding repetitive...

By Jove..., I think he's got it! [;)]
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pompack
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Hello Pompack,

I read the following
ORIGINAL: pompack

I have to admit that I love those cute little biplane dive bombers. By converting or withdrawing every land based dive bomber (USMC flavor) I have been able to maintain at least two SBDs (of some flavor, not necessarily the good ones) in the pool at all times. I don't believe that I ever had more than one unit at less than full strength when I started a raid.

Also I carefully avoided sending my carriers anywhere there might be real opposition (defined as more than 8-10 land-based fighters and never in the same ocean as KB) until May42. I never attacked air bases more than once unless I knew that there were a/c trapped on the ground on damaged bases; flak and ops losses will cripple you quickly. What it comes down to is all the US can afford is about one raid a month against trivial opposition before late summer 42.

Also I found that flying 80% search with the scouts and 0% search with the bombers is a bad idea. I had significantly fewer ops losses when I put up the same number of scouts with 40% search on each; of course it is a lot more work to set up your searches since you have to have each unit search a different short arc compared to a single unit on search.

EDIT: just went back and checked and through 17jun42 my SBD losses (three types) are 40 ops, 14 flak, 0 A2A, 2 ground total 56. Just living is dangerous enough (75%!!), you can't afford to lose any in what is basically pointless raiding (but like most people I feel that I ought to go out and DO SOMETHING in early 42)

Could u give a guestimate on number of sorties ur pilots have flown? aka ops rate and could i use above post in my thread about ops losses.
Ur lost 40 SBD to ops losses and the entire navy SBD ops losses in the war from carriers was 59.
I wana try and point out that the ops loss problem isnt just on catalinas.

Kind regards, and TIA

Rasmus

Wallac:
The simple answer to your question is I don't have a clue [&:]. I can pull the data that the Allies had over 414k total sorties with 693 ops losses but I have no idea how much of that was due to SBDs. I also have to say that I am not yet convinced that this "sorties total" includes search and ASW sorties; I am certain it does not include training sorties yet in real life the bulk of the ops losses were in training. Also note that I cannot say that all of the SBD losses I suffered were operating from carriers at the time. While I flew no combat sorties from land bases with SBDs, I did use a few for ASW patrol at PH and there were some in the US that were training and may have suffered ops losses there.

Also I have to say that if someone told me that there were only 59 SBD ops losses in carrier operations in all of WWII in the Pacific I would have to resort to words that are not allowed in this forum in order to express my skepticism [:D]. What data I have seen indicates that over 70% of the USN a/c lost between 1941 and 1945 were not combat related and that carrier operations provide the most dangerous flying in the world. Now I have no doubt that you (or I) will find sources that X a/c were lost due to "operational factors" but the definitions in such sources are usually quite narrow and constrained by the purpose of the work. My figure of "over 70%" was determined by taking what was left after "combat losses". Depending upon the source, these "combat losses" as a fraction of total losses could be around 30% although I have seen numbers that vary all the way from around 15% (known to be destroyed in the air) to 20% ("killed or missing") to 45% (killed, missing or written off after a mission). While there is a lot of variation in both the numbers and what is included in the numbers, I have never seen a source that claimed that "combat losses" were more than half of the total a/c destroyed (crashed, missing, written off, and or canabalized).

Just my two cents and sorry I can't provide you with better numbers from my game. [:)]

EDIT: After reading my own post, I have to say that I may have overstated my position in relation to your question. While 50%-75% of the TOTAL a/c lost were not combat related, I have to admit that many if not most of them were primary trainers (note that more USAAF pilots were killed in training than in combat) and even AE does not charge us for primary trainers. Mea Culpa. But I still would have a strong reaction to only 59 SBD losses [;)]
Walloc
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: pompack
Also I have to say that if someone told me that there were only 59 SBD ops losses in carrier operations in all of WWII in the Pacific I would have to resort to words that are not allowed in this forum in order to express my skepticism [:D]. What data I have seen indicates that over 70% of the USN a/c lost between 1941 and 1945 were not combat related and that carrier operations provide the most dangerous flying in the world.

Well dats cuz ur rigth the actual number is 113. My bad.
http://www.history.navy.mil/download/nasc.pdf
Page 14 table 1 Carrier based totals, line SBD.

Kind regards,

Rasmus
Marty A
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Marty A »

that 113 was only on combat missions according to page 1:

2. DATA NOT INCLUDED
Not all the story of Naval aviation, which could be told in statistical terms, is covered
in this report. The reasons for the omissions arise from the history and assigned functions of
the statistical unit preparing the data, and from the lack of any integrated statistical organization
covering all naval air operation. Postwar personnel shortages prevented this Branch
from making good these deficiencies.
Naval air anti-submarine warfare is the first exclusion. This results from the establishment,
many months prior to initiation of the general air combat statistical analysis program,
of a special ASW statistical analysis unit, (directly under CominCh, and later under Tenth Fleet).
To avoid duplication of a field well covered elsewhere, no records of air ASW activity were kept
by this Branch or its predecessors.
The second principal exclusion is complete, detailed data on flights not involving actual
action with the enemy (for search, reconnaissance, defensive, or other purposes), and losses
sustained on such flights. This arose from (a) the prior existence of another office (Flight
S t a t i s t i c , DCNO(Air)) primarily concerned with data on non-action flights, (b) the primary importance
of devoting the limited manpower and facilities available to the analysis of action
statistics not compiled elsewhere and (c) a lack of complete, uniform and detailed incoming
reports on non-action flights. This exclusion has been partly compensated by including in some
tables herein data on total flights reported monthly (for 1944-45 only) by squadrons which were
engaged .in a ctio—n during any month, and non-action losses by such squadrons during the entire war.
These items, however, do not give a full picture of the extent of naval air defensive or
reconnaissance patrol activity or losses sustained therein. It is doubtful whether data exist
which would permit a full and accurate statistical presentation of this activity.
A further exclusion is data on the operations of VO-VS aircraft. These operations were not
regularly reported by the units involved, in a manner permitting their tabulation by the IBM
card system.
The final major exclusion is data on losses of flying personnel. Losses as reported in
action reports are not final, because of subsequent rescues, or return of captured airmen. Data
on these is maintained by BuPers, but is not compiled and reported on a basis comparable with
the aircraft loss data herein.
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Jim D Burns
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: pompack
EDIT: But I still would have a strong reaction to only 59 SBD losses [;)]

That's because you're buying into the myth of massive op losses, probably started back in the 70's by some designers notes in some board game. The link that Walloc posted are the actual tallies of losses from front line units during the war.

The department responsible for tracking and recording losses during the war published that document, so there is no better source data available on the matter other than the raw data figures the department used to compile those tables from.

But since they used their own raw data sources to compile that report, it's pretty safe to assume the numbers are very close to 100% accurate.

Op losses were a significant percentage of the war losses, but nowhere near the huge percentages of operational airframe losses some like to declare occurred. I think one person even posted 10% or more of airframes were lost every single month. A ridiculous figure given the actual numbers shown in that document.

Out of 284, 073 sorties flown, there were 4,390 operational losses from all causes. That's less than 2% op losses. Japanese planes were less durable than US planes, so their op losses were probably a little higher. But I doubt it would go above 5% if there were any reliable documentation left, but most Japanese records were destroyed.

Jim

Edit: Actually I goofed. The sorties listed were only the action sorties flown (there is no figure for the number of non-action sorties flown), so only action sortie op losses should count, and there were only 1,345 of those. So the figure is less than 1/2 of 1% op losses for the entire war.
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pompack
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Walloc

ORIGINAL: pompack
Also I have to say that if someone told me that there were only 59 SBD ops losses in carrier operations in all of WWII in the Pacific I would have to resort to words that are not allowed in this forum in order to express my skepticism [:D]. What data I have seen indicates that over 70% of the USN a/c lost between 1941 and 1945 were not combat related and that carrier operations provide the most dangerous flying in the world.

Well dats cuz ur rigth the actual number is 113. My bad.
http://www.history.navy.mil/download/nasc.pdf
Page 14 table 1 Carrier based totals, line SBD.

Kind regards,

Rasmus
Interesting, I had not realized there were that few SBD sorties. Note that the "OPS" rate in this table is 2.4% with 64% of the losses not combat related so it does correspond with other data I have seen. If you look at the land-based SBDs you get 0.5% and 62% respectively, clearly carriers are dangerous places to fly from [:)].

The issue with all data like this is determining just what they counted as "own losses". In the notes area there is a disturbing note that "284,073 sorties engaging in attacks, or aerial combat, or both ..." and note that the total sorties in the loss tables comes to 284,073 sorties. So what about the sorties that did NOT result in a attacks ... ? Are operational losses for such flights included in these tables? I would tend to doubt it because the entire purpose of the paper is to show how great Naval Aviation performed; I don't see them including data that would give the enoneous impression that losses per sortie were higher than they really were.

Overall a good source full of interesting data. But I still suspect that there were more losses (and more sorties) than are shown in these tables simply because there were a LOT of sorties that did not engage in attacks, aerial combat or both and some of those sorties resulted in lost or written-off a/c.

Prefessional historians must have even less hair than I do from trying to draw conclusions from all of the available data[:D]
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pompack
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: pompack
EDIT: But I still would have a strong reaction to only 59 SBD losses [;)]

That's because you're buying into the myth of massive op losses, probably started back in the 70's by some designers notes in some board game. The link that Walloc posted are the actual tallies of losses from front line units during the war.

Nope, I bought into that myth by reading a LOT of history including a number of works that used, quoted and/or presented primary source data
Mike Scholl
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Mike Scholl »

Non-Combat losses in the Second World War ran between 3/5ths and 2/3rds for ALL participants.
Arimus
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Arimus »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Peever
TheElf:
Can you imagine the outcry from the other 99.9% of the community if we changed rates to anything other than historical levels? All in favor....?

As much as I personally would like to see different productions levels I concede there would be no way to get a consensus as to what they would be other than historical. That's why I'm grateful the game includes a great editor so I can tweak little things here and there to suit my own play style ,or create truly ludicrous "what-if" scenarios.

at the risk of sounding repetitive...

By Jove..., I think he's got it! [;)]


So you are saying the official GC scenarios are set and are not going to change for anything other than minor corrections?
I don't believe that will be the case.

I don't think a change that allows the allied player to purchase a few hundred historically produced airframes a "what-if" for a game of this scale.

As far as changing production rates to historic levels, not a good idea as historic production rates would make to many airframes available to the allied player.
Mike Scholl
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Arimus
As far as changing production rates to historic levels, not a good idea as historic production rates would make to many airframes available to the allied player.


Not to mention reducing the Japanese airframes to the historically miniscule rates.... [:D]
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Arimus

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Peever



As much as I personally would like to see different productions levels I concede there would be no way to get a consensus as to what they would be other than historical. That's why I'm grateful the game includes a great editor so I can tweak little things here and there to suit my own play style ,or create truly ludicrous "what-if" scenarios.

at the risk of sounding repetitive...

By Jove..., I think he's got it! [;)]


So you are saying the official GC scenarios are set and are not going to change for anything other than minor corrections?
I don't believe that will be the case.

I don't think a change that allows the allied player to purchase a few hundred historically produced airframes a "what-if" for a game of this scale.

As far as changing production rates to historic levels, not a good idea as historic production rates would make to many airframes available to the allied player.
I haven't seen anything that tells me any drastic changes are necessary. Did I mention the editor?
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by RevRick »

Off topic?

Pom, is that a King Charles Spaniel by your Pom????
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Nomad
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

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he stated above that it was a Cavalier Spaniel.
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Mynok
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Mynok »

ORIGINAL: TheElf
I haven't seen anything that tells me any drastic changes are necessary. Did I mention the editor?

Yes, you did. Numerous times. Apparently it is easy to forget or ignore. [8|]
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Arimus

ORIGINAL: TheElf



at the risk of sounding repetitive...

By Jove..., I think he's got it! [;)]


So you are saying the official GC scenarios are set and are not going to change for anything other than minor corrections?
I don't believe that will be the case.

I don't think a change that allows the allied player to purchase a few hundred historically produced airframes a "what-if" for a game of this scale.

As far as changing production rates to historic levels, not a good idea as historic production rates would make to many airframes available to the allied player.
I haven't seen anything that tells me any drastic changes are necessary. Did I mention the editor?

Yes you did. And a damned fine job of it you did , too! [:D] In an AI game, the editor can definately be your friend. Especially for people trying to game the "what if" scenarios , as I often do. Great job to you and your team mates Elf! If people are complaining , then you've done your job right![:D][&o]
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Gary D
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Gary D »

Gents;

I avoided "logistics" and "procurement" right up to the end of my 28 years in the US Navy. I did spend 9 of those years on CVs. How ever we want to bounce this around in our heads, any result that leaves a United States Navy carrier, that took an enormous industrial effort to produce, sitting tied up waiting months for airframes of any kind is implausible. They did not 70 years ago, they would not today.

Ernie King would have built his own airplanes out of the typewriters he tossed out first! The VMB/VMF squadrons would have vanished, the Army would have coughed up anything including LeMays cigars!

While most of the enjoyment of AE and its predecessors is creating alternate history, at some point you just have to say this did not happen and would not as long as Ernie King drew breath.

My two cents anyhow! [:)]

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DrewMatrix
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by DrewMatrix »

Allies vs AI, Scen 6, Hard

As a test in April '42 I ran the TF of US CVs (4) from Brisbane to Truk. About 1/2 way to Truk the CVs essentially ran out of ready fighters due to time to service A/C on board (not due to destroyed fighters). The IJ got a total of 1 250 Kg bomb hit on the Sara in that whole voyage. IJ bombers couldn't hit anything even with 1-3 fighters as opposition.

Looking at the IJ the reason appears to be the IJ have 2 Betty units left with Exp in the 60s, both those in out of the way places and not encountered on this voyage. There are 3 unis with average Exp in the 50s, one in the 40s and the rest of the Betty units are in the 30s, mostly the low 30's.

The essentially limitless IJ airframes (there are 500+ Betty replacements remaining) have let the IJ burn through their trained pilots by April 15 '42.

With fewer airframes I suspect they would have some trained pilots left.

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Scott_USN
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Scott_USN »

The editor rocks! Although restarting sucks...
pmelheck1
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by pmelheck1 »

I looked through the editor but I can't find the AI module dealing with factory expansion.  If you would be so kind as to let me know which AI script number it is.
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RE: Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate

Post by Scott_USN »

I just go to the Aircraft tab, then I select for instance F4F and increase the production a small amount. I never bother with factories as Allied I just make production increases since it is abstract in game anyway

Open the Editor and load the scenario you want to edit
After it loads click on Aifcraft tab as pointed to in the picture
The adjust the Build rate to what you think it should be

After editing Save the scenario in a new slot above slot 25
When you start a new game select the slot you saved to for your new game and poof you have a new production rate on aircraft. be sure you are happy before starting a new game because you have to start over if you find a problem. You can't edit saved games :(

Also watch for Build End times, you can also edit the pool and have aircraft on hand when the game starts. If you want 400 F4F at the start of the game just edit the pool. I just adjusted mine a small amount to come to what I think is historical numbers! Not that the scenario creators are wrong I Just don't want to wait to 43 to have air battles where I can recover from...

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