Shooting down B-17s

[jomni]

I'm playing Japan and those B-17 are really pesky.
I just hope the damaged ones won't reach home and become an operational loss.
Because of Fog of War we can't confirm this in the stats right (unless I load the US side)?

With regerds to interceptors. I think the Japanese were seriously thinking about interceptors only when the home islands became thretened with strategic bombing. But then you will be facing the B-29!

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: mullk

What year are you in?  I'm in mar of 42 and I have less then 70 B-17E's in the pacific.  I have used my bombers only once or twice then have to wait a couple of weeks for replacements and repairs.  Even the A24's I received in Australia ware wiped out in 2-3 days of fighting, never received a single replacement and were withdrawn with 1-2 planes in each squadron.  I've had to abandon Port Moresby it's only got 50 fights at the base with no replacements in the pool while the Japanese are sending 70 Zeros everyday doing sweeps with 1000 fights in the pool.  Isn't hard to figure out how that one's going to end.  Can't get ships to the port as the betties sink every thing within range wither it has fighter cap or not (in my current game betties have a 50-80% hit rate, 10 get through your going to loose 3-5 ships, and they always attack with torpedoes)

Training makes a big difference. Throw 30 experience pilots into combat and they will likely get chewed up and spit out. On the other hand, hold back the new air units for a while and train the heck out of them and you will see better results.

It's tough to do in the early going, but while you will likely lose some places due to lack of airpower, you will have a back stop of trained pilots when you are able to draw the line.

Bill

[Gobstopper]

Actually, in my current game, the B17E at one point was the leader in air-to-air losses.  I've just smacked a bunch of Buffalo, Hudson, and Hurricane though, so it's dropped back. 
 
The Nick does fairly well.  The Zero is ok if you have superior numbers.  You're never going to wipe out the incoming bombers on a given run though.  just slow attrition.
 
Even the nate though will cut down on the effectivness of the bombing runs (they won't kill any B17s though) and you have plenty of them to sprinkle around.

[morganbj]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Why not? 1 bullet per B-17 sounds about right. Fits right in with the Emperors 6 months to Wade McCluskey training program and empty USN CVs.

I'd like to apologize to the folks that worked hard on this game for this remark. Obviously I still feel strongly about it but I should have constructed my comments in a more decent fashion. Sorry.

I'm not in a position to accept the apology, but I don't think anybody should have been terribly offended by it. I found it to be a little humorous since I think I know what you meant.

It goes without saying that the devs have done a maganificent job with this game. It's wonderful, spectacular, perhaps the best ever. But, it's not perfect. (Damn close, though.) A simple, somewhat accurate remark shouldn't irritate anyone.

Now, let's go sink some Jap carriers.

Then .... let's nuke the Nipponese hoards into oblivion in '45!!!

[sfbaytf]

B-17's were not easy to shoot down. Well armored, self sealing tanks, 50 cals for self defense. Supercharged engines gave decent high altitude performance.

However they are not invincible. IMO:Nor are they that effective if you try using them conventionally.

Historically it took hundreds if not a thousand to achieve decent results as bombing accuracy left much to be desired.

By the time that's possible it will be superseded in the Pacific by the B-24 which has greater range. RANGE is a greater asset in the Pacific than Europe.

I put B-17's to good use...as naval search and ASW patrol craft.

IMO: Bombing with B-17's early on is a waste of time, unless you send them in at 100 feet, which is too gamey.

[jomni]

You're right. Come to think of it, B-17 strikes are hard to shoot down.  But they usually send only 3 to 5 and never hit a thing.

[pmelheck1]

From some of the accounts I've read the Japanese never really did develop a strategy for dealing with the heavy bombers.  They did loose their initial fear of them however.  I think it was probably left up to units or individual pilots to come up with their own tactics rather then a service strategy such as Germany developed.

[pmelheck1]

The problem I ran into with A-24's at Port Moresby was the Japanese took Lae and the next turn were flying 70-100 zero's out of it.  Even though the A-24's were escorted by P-40's they were both overwhelmed and wiped out.  Port Moresby was Rather small so I only had one A-24 and one P-40 squadron there at a time and rotated them out to try to keep numbers up and slow the advance south.

[Scott_USN]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Oscars?  Didn't they have two 7.7mm machine guns?  Kinda anemic when hunting big game.  They wouldn't do more than piss off an elephant and the B-17 is bigger.

Sort of like shooting the Elephant with a .22 rifle.

[Scott_USN]

ORIGINAL: mullk

The problem I ran into with A-24's at Port Moresby was the Japanese took Lae and the next turn were flying 70-100 zero's out of it.  Even though the A-24's were escorted by P-40's they were both overwhelmed and wiped out.  Port Moresby was Rather small so I only had one A-24 and one P-40 squadron there at a time and rotated them out to try to keep numbers up and slow the advance south.

Yeah but those are dive bombers. I get the numbers confused also.

B-24 was the big badass bomber from hell.

Just fat ugly and strong

[oldman45]

I have had good luck with my 4E bombers flying them between 5k and 8k. Usually start off hitting airfields at night and slowly wearing the AI down. Once things get enough damage on the AF I switch to day and smash it. It took me a month bombing Singapore before I switch over to days. By then I have 8 squadrons in postition. They got thru [;)]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

Is it possible for the Jap player to shoot down B-17? I'm 9 months in the game and my fighters (Oscars and Zeros) seem to be unable to shoot down B-17s. Although it seems the AI has some damaged bombers on let's say every 2nd raid I only managed to shoot down maybe 5 of them until now in 9 months. Is that accurate? The best I can get is having the bombers turn back without unloading their bomb load over my bases. But as I said it seems almost impossible for a CAP to down B-17s even if its 3:1. And B-17s are never escorted by allied fighters. Just curious if that's intended.

The zero is going to have hard time with B-17 (especially the early models) due to not enough ammo for cannon and B-17 being very strong build bomber. Oscar I is even worse than Zero in terms weapon loadout.

but ammo isn´t calcualted in the game

[pmelheck1]

A-24 is the banshee an army version of the SBD.  The "A" designates it as an attack bomber or tactical bomber.  B-24 is a heavy bomber or strategic bomber.  Normally the "A" designated aircraft were intended for battlefield support of troops and tactical strikes but in actual use mission types flown between "A" and "B" type aircraft could become quite blurred.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

[TheTomDude]

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

What's "high altitude" for you? My Zeros usually fly CAP between 20 and 25'000 ft. and can't down the B-17s.

The Nick is not available until the end of 42 if you play with "player defined upgrades" ON. There is no Jap Squadron that could use the Ki-45a version as I already wrote in an other thread. Dunno why this is and there is no explanation from the devs so far. So the Japs have virtually no plane until the end of 42 that is capabable to pose a threat to B-17s (with PDU on that is).

[m10bob]

Saburo Sakai did not down his first encountered B 17. In fact he gives much time to the telling of that engagement, and relates being upset that after emptying all of his ammo, he last saw the B 17 trailing smoke, nothing else.

[Puhis]

Many time japanese pilots misjudge the distance, because 4E bombers were so big. So they fired too far away and missed the plane.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Many time japanese pilots misjudge the distance, because 4E bombers were so big. So they fired too far away and missed the plane.

This is exactly why that great and venerable Douglas B 19...."The wonder of aviation art", would have surely been invincible![:D]

[goran007]

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

What's "high altitude" for you? My Zeros usually fly CAP between 20 and 25'000 ft. and can't down the B-17s.

The Nick is not available until the end of 42 if you play with "player defined upgrades" ON. There is no Jap Squadron that could use the Ki-45a version as I already wrote in an other thread. Dunno why this is and there is no explanation from the devs so far. So the Japs have virtually no plane until the end of 42 that is capabable to pose a threat to B-17s (with PDU on that is).

Ki-45 KAIa, should be available from 04/1942.

following airgroups as stated before can be upgraded into it if PDU is on.
84 IF Chutai (12)
4 Sentai (36)
13 Sentai (42)
5 Sentai (30)

Ki-45 KAIa has gun value of 16 and max speed of 360, and should be the best plane for tackling 4 engine bombers in '42.
Think i saw that it will be available from 04/1942, but now i see that 12/1942 is also mentioned.
Could someone confirm when actually that plane comes to theatre and is it any good.

thx.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

In AE, what is the best Japanese fighter for the interceptor/point defense role and when does it arrive?

Nick (4/42) and Tojo (great climb rate and good speed, but not so good firepower) IMHO.

The Zero is useful but you have to be on CAP at high altitude when bombers arrive...

What's "high altitude" for you? My Zeros usually fly CAP between 20 and 25'000 ft. and can't down the B-17s.

The Nick is not available until the end of 42 if you play with "player defined upgrades" ON. There is no Jap Squadron that could use the Ki-45a version as I already wrote in an other thread. Dunno why this is and there is no explanation from the devs so far. So the Japs have virtually no plane until the end of 42 that is capabable to pose a threat to B-17s (with PDU on that is).

I use my Zeros at 20.000 fts. I play agains the AI, I have a total of 41 B-17D and 17 B-17E downed mostly to Air kills and ops. (EDIT: I am mid Feb 42.) As Japanese however, you should begin to think that you cannot truly stop those monsters, you will always lack firepower and good interceptors. You can damage them (and in AE they need a lot of time to repair), hope in ops losses and occasionally some air kills.
As for the nicks, I found at least 2 units in Japan that can upgrade to Ki-45 KAIa (avaliability from 5/54), 13th Sentai and 4th Sentai (they're nates), they should upgrade even with PDU OFF. A list of Air Squadron with upgrade paths wuould be very useful.
Bye