Do we have resolution on the Japanese AI air replacements?

[Jaypea]

First, let me say that after playing PACWAR --> UV --> WITP --> AE this is absolutely the best was game I have ever played. Great job on the AI, It is 10X better than WITP.

Now, while I like all aspects of the game, the AI air reinforcements have to be fixed. I am just start in Jan 1943 as Allies, I have lost 5000 a/c vs 17k a/c for the Jap AI. So thats OK but as I count, the AI has a whopping 34,000 a/c in reserve [X(]. As said in the other thread, this needs to be fixed as far as I am concerned it makles the came almost unplayable with the meager Allied Air reinforcements. I play a fairly conservative game and it falling along the historical lines, so even playing mostly defense, I still can not fill out half of my army air units. My carriers are doing OK at this point but only because I have used them defensively. So before I go and edit and create my own playable game, will this be fixed in the next patch?

Thanks again for the great work, hats off to you guys[&o]

regards
Jaypea

[JohnDillworth]

might as well simplify things and just make Jap replacements unlimited. Limit it only by date, the number of pilots and the number air-groups. It kind of works out that way anyhow.

[Mike Solli]

Keep in mind that the Japanese player does not have 34k pilots in their pools, to include the pipeline.  The AI will never use the vast majority of those planes.
 
*If this message posts 3 times, I'm just trying to pad my post count. [:'(]

[pmelheck1]

Player squadrons can be taken down to no aircraft with no replacements and lots of pilots.  The Japanese AI can keep every squadron filled regardless of losses even if it uses untrained pilots because those pilots will be trained up from attacks on airfields with empty allied air groups.  Pilots training doesn't matter when I can put up four or five fighters against 60-80 Japanese Aircraft.  If I and the Japanese send a raid of betties and B-17's and we both lose 30 planes it takes me 2 months to recover, it takes Japan ONE DAY.  In the two months I have to wait to rebuild my units those bettie groups are not sitting still but bombing everything they can and gaining experience.  "quantity is a quality all it's own"

[Gilbert]

Mike is absolutely right. For Japan, it doesn't matter how many planes the aircraft industry could produce because IJA and IJN will by no means be able to get the associated well trained pilots to fly them. Japanese pilots skills, as IRL, will tend to be less and less high and even if they can produce many good fighters like "Frank" or "George", the pilots in these fighters won't be as qualified as the 1941-1942 ones flying on Zero or Oscar.
I agree on the fact that Japanese aircraft production are ahistorical but as far as they can't put some good pilots flying them, it won't change the war outcome.

Gilbert

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Keep in mind that the Japanese player does not have 34k pilots in their pools, to include the pipeline.  The AI will never use the vast majority of those planes.

But it does mean that they will never have to use any but the best A/C they produce. Which is total nonsense, and completely ahistorical and unfair.

[pmelheck1]

If the Japanese AI can supress your aircraft to a point he is losing less planes than his pilot replacement rate he can sustain trained pilots all war.  IRL the Japanese didn't have unlimited aircraft to overwhelm and annihilate the allies thus in the long run lowering his own losses in the process.   Pilot training is moot when all your pilots are sitting in the pool and his are sitting in aircraft.

[Gilbert]

ORIGINAL: mullk

If the Japanese AI can supress your aircraft to a point he is losing less planes than his pilot replacement rate he can sustain trained pilots all war.  IRL the Japanese didn't have unlimited aircraft to overwhelm and annihilate the allies thus in the long run lowering his own losses in the process.   Pilot training is moot when all your pilots are sitting in the pool and his are sitting in aircraft.

As you say "If..." but I doubt this will happen by reading other threads where Japanese players are already complaining about their pilot skills in mid-42. I think this ahistorical aircraft production has been made by the devs to give Allied players a better challenge and to compensate ahistorical Japanese aircraft losses. I think we have to wait and see how the situation evolves in 1943 for the Allies. If Japan aircrafts continue to rule the skies and Allies are desesperatly short of planes, (but I highly doubt it), then, "Houston, we have a problem..." and the current situation should be corrected.

Gilbert

[ART11]

Hmm, it is not a question about Jap AI production - It's a matter of "extra" reinforcements given them by programmers and it's intentional. In my game (30 Dec 41) AI expand Aircraft production to 1567 - no problem since AI follow the common industry rules, but also  it received about 500 Dinah for free, 700 Sonia's and more other types (about 5000 aircraft only in one month!!!!, record was 652 Sonia's in one turn). This means any war of attrition with AI is no longer possible. I do not know if this "extras" can be removed in editor. Maybe the better way is to create separate scenario with such a replaceements turned off? This aircraft numbers were on Easy diff level but what will happend on very hard?
It's only one thing which I do not like in this game. Rest are perfect guys, great job!!!
Regards
ART

[BigJ62]

In Official Patch 1 Japanese factory a/c engine and frames expansion will be based on difficulty level, normal level will be very much like human.

[ART11]

Great! Will also this "extra one offs" be turned off?
Regards
ART

[BigJ62]

I don't know anything about free a/c as it is not in my code.

[pmelheck1]

Multi player is dragged in to explan the AI even though one has nothing to do with the other.  The issue with Japanese aircraft production and economic collapse were a problem with WITP from launch day and were never addressed nor fixed.  Here we are with AE with the same problem.  I will rule the skies late in the war but not from a production stand point but because the Japanese economy will have collapsed early in the game and the AI CAN NOT fix it.  I watched this for five years with WITP now I'm watching the same thing with AE.  When the Japanese players talk about economic collapse and recovery they talk of too much production.  The Japanese AI is expanding worse than any human player would and yet nobody thinks this is a problem.  If the production of aircraft can be brought to historical levels it will eliminate Japan's unlimited replacements and allow a war of attrition to be viable for the allies something it is not now.  Second lower production also means a much healthier Japanese economy  with collapse from allied war effort and not uber production.  In addition if the allies can collapse the Japanese economy there is a chance if their is sufficient raw matrieals to recover IF production isn't more then all the resources of the earth combined.  In most of my games of WITP the Japanese economy collapsed in late '42 and never recovered.  To me both of these issues are related.  I want historic levels of production on both sides not a different version of "Command and Conquer pacific".  I also don't want the Japanese economy to collapse due to over production.  If I were playing a human opponent this is all moot but I don't play human opponents and have no interest in it.  We all come to AE expecting or wanting different things.  I want historical accuracy even if more than painful for me.  At the moment this is half right with AI production being the problem.  Others want a level playing field they want a game and couldn't care less about history.  I'm all for that too, in a different scenario.  I'm not looking to limit what players do with the Japanese economy this is why they play Japan and I think it's great.  How about the allied AI multiply replacement rates by a factor of 10 as the Japanese AI does.  In my game the production of betties will excede real life levels by the end of '42 for the Mavis it will excede production in Mar-Apr '42.  To some people the fact the computer generates 20000 betties as opposed to the 2000 or 2000 mavis vs 200 IRL is not an issue.  I was looking for a historical game not Command and Conquer with an aircraft rush.

[ART11]

Could somebody answer where it is and how it works? I asked about that in 2 threads but only receive info that is intentional and smaller on easy levels. That's why I started on easy but after one month it looks like Japs have 5000 extra a/c.
Regards
ART

[Andy Mac]

I am not sure what you want me to say the AI gets help with aircraft production it needs it it will lose a lot more than any player would and some of these helps are necessary.
 
Help is higher at higher difficulty levels and is more obvious in obsolete types the AI is not using.
 
Why on earth anyone would be peeking to track AI aircraft production is beyond me but hey its your choice.
 
 

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: mullk

Multi player is dragged in to explan the AI even though one has nothing to do with the other.

Wrong. It's the same engine. Same limitations. The devs did a masterful job trying get a decent AI but the basic reality of life in computer wargames is that an AI is best used to learn the game so one can play an actual human.

No matter what your schedule limitations or whatever, you CAN find someone who will play you.

[pmelheck1]

I'm glad to here about production with regard to difficulty.  Please don't get me wrong.  I think the game if fantastic but don't like the ahistorical production by the AI.  The team did a great job and I'm still very satisfied with AE.  I am just here voicing what I hope will improve the game for folks like me who are looking for history.  I am not intending to negative to anyone and apologize if anyone took thing this way.  The Team put a lot of effort in AE and it shows outstandingly.  I played WITP from launch but never really tried to address any of the production issues.  Now however you have nailed what I consider the best Pacific war program available.  So I voice in the hopes of helping to improve an already great game.  My area of history study was ww2 air history.  I am retired Air Force so for me this is indeed a passionate area.  I'm not as well versed as others in the ground and navel areas and will leave those to others who are better qualified.  If unlimited aircraft production was a programing choice I can live with that but I haven't seen anything saying so.  Hence my interest in improving the game to allow tactics that worked in real life to work in the game (aircraft production) and also long term playability (no AI economic collapse).  I am primarally addressing aircraft because they are both easily tracked and verified.  I think ground has the same issue but it's more difficult to verify.  With air power playing such a large role in the game as it did in real life numbers DO matter.  Endgame would be a prime example.  instead of 2000 aircraft for Kamikaze use there could be 100000 or 200000 aircraft.

[pmelheck1]

I tend to peek at production levels when I've been fighting for weeks and my air units are completely destroyed and the AI continues to send full strength raids everyday.  When I look at production levels I see that not only are all of their squadrons full strength but they still have 800-1000 aircraft in the pool.  You come to a very quick conclusion that only the AI can win a war of attrition.  sweeps, airfield strikes, escort, cap none of this matters because for every Japanese plane you down they produce 10.  Even if I have a 10 to 1 kill ratio it doesn't matter if I'm being out produced 20 to 1.  A war of attrition works in Japans favor as they can afford unlimited losses but the human player can't.  Bonus aircraft make sense to me tied to difficulty level but bonus and unlimited production?

[Andy Mac]

AI production is not unlimited if you shut down the factories by starvation or lack of HI the Ai runs out of aircraft
 
You need to remember the AI does not use PDU - so the AI having 2,000 A6M2 is irrelevant because the AI will upgrade to A6M5 and the AI will NEVER downgrade
 
Sonias it doesnt matter how many the AI has once sallies and helens are around only a very few sqns use them.
 
 

[ART11]

Andy
I asked where with a little hope that it's able to change in editor. Is it any possibility to have such functionality (toogle extra off/on) in future?
I'd rather like to  only see 1000 AI flying planes per turn on all the map, not 10000 knowing that 90% of them are extra generated. Of course for PBEM players it doesn't matter, for most of playing with AI the same, but I think there is a small group who do not like C&C as mullk said.
Looking that You are changing the AI production approach a little bit maybe it's worth to allow players decide about "extras", of course if it does not need huge effort, completely rewrite code etc.  
Why I looked at AI production? Because I tried the war of attrition strategy with AI above  the Philippines - trying to reionforce my P40's at all costs. AI losses were significant but without any impact on number of aircraft attacking next turn. So I decided to open save file on Jap side and look what's going on.
To be clearly understood this game is the best game I've ever played. [&o][&o][&o]
Regards
ART