Japanese steam roll in China

[pionkki]

A Chinese division was completely wiped out in one bombrdment at a base with level 2 fortifications. Couple of such bombardments, the Japanese player can take the base without casualties and then go for another base, etc...

So is there anything to do to hold the Japanese steam roll? This is a scen 2 PBEM.

Ground combat at Nanyang (85,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 105402 troops, 924 guns, 214 vehicles, Assault Value = 3292

Defending force 37700 troops, 151 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 870


Allied ground losses:
1802 casualties reported
Squads: 56 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 28 destroyed, 67 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Assaulting units:
8th Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Armored Car Co
13th Tank Regiment
116th Division
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
36th Division
41st Division
9th Armored Car Co
7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
138th Infantry Regiment
12th Tank Regiment
32nd Division
37th Division
5th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Ankei SNLF
Ikaiei SNLF
1st Army
2nd Ind. Engineer Regiment
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
1st Mortar Battalion
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
11th Army
12th Army
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Ind. Engineer Regiment
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
11th Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
90th Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
92nd Chinese Corps
41st Chinese Corps
4th Construction Regiment
5th War Area
2nd Group Army
22nd Group Army

[aztez]

I have seen these kind of results. By looking and judging the situation my advice would be to get out from Nanyang immediately unless you have level +6 forts there which I doubt you have.

Next shock assault by the japanese will destroy these chinese units and he has brought in armour here.

Chinese are really poor units and easily overrun.

Personally I think it has been somewhat of mistake to keep the starting forts here at level 0.

Well, I'am not going into too much detail since my PBEM opponent is reading threads too but this is very similar that I have experienced.

You might wanna take a look on the AAR which has quite a lot of detail regarding this area/theatre.

All I can say that China is bloody mess.

[khyberbill]

You got off easy. The affect of massed artillery is really devastating in AE, especially against the Chinese. I have lost over 10,000 casualties in one bombardment (50+AV per turn destroyed), behind a lvl 4 fort. If your opponent buys out the artillery in Manchuria, you will have a rough slog of it. It seems the developers are satisfied with this portion of the game. The forces in Burma fare about as well.

[Smeulders]

I wonder if the poor morale/experience has something to do with this. Maybe the high casualties also reflect units scattering/deserting when they are placed under heavy bombardments. 

[tigercub]

If you are not dug in well Arty will kill you like there is no tomorrow!


Tiger!

[Streptokok]

I dont know whats the whining on allied side in China, Im Jap player and cant do jack shit there [&:]
And at the begning theres just no saving Ichang and Singyang at least i cant...
And if I do acomplish something it seems its due to alot of luck, lack of supplies in Chinesee hands after one or two turn of fights and obligatory use of shock attcks wich depletes Jap forces alot.
Havent won a single fight with deliberate attack, not even one and I did try...

[Smeulders]

Take a look at the AAR by Aztez, he's not just been on the defensive, he's been chased out of every town his opponent send decent forces to. Mind you, I'm not saying there is anything wrong, not many PBEM have gone on long enough to give the allied player a chance to stabalize the front, but the situation isn't too rosy either.

[Streptokok]

Im reading the AARs i just dont see how he did it. What troops he used for China steamroll?, most of combat units in China that are in Jap hands are 15/15 - 25/25 exp/morale (feinitly 50-60% of units afaik). One deliberate attack with those troops and they are 90% disabled.
So I cant attack with them and cant leave bases defended with only those units because they will not be able to defend the base no matter what AS value says.
i have checked most of middle china units and found only 1 jap div with 80/80 exp/morale. Usable troops are mostly 50/50 to max 60/60 with most of them being a combo of 50/55 - 55/50. THere are also number of them under 50 like 45/45 etc.
Nothing shoving me "hey use these bunch of units and steamroll while 15/15 units sit in bases and rest".

Only usable group of Jap for a decent attack is the group attacking Hong Kong and the div attacking it is ment to go to Southern areas after that attackon Hong Kong.

It seems I suck at AE, Im not just unable to attack Chinese anywhere but im also unable to defend against gazillion Chineese solodiers.....

[Streptokok]

Quick sniff into aztez thread reveals this:

Assaulting units:
6th Division
3rd Division
20th Ind.Mixed Brigade
12th RGC Temp. Division
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
Assaulting units:
34th Division
57th Infantry Brigade

Means Jap player is using his good units to attack while leaving those RGC's defending.
However this requires alot of shock attacking that depletes Jap units, wonder what happens to units after 1-3 weeks of shock attacking and moving around.
And it seems that allied player hasnt exploited the fact that Jap bases are now defended by weak units since his truly Jap divisions are on attack.

[Historiker]

Im reading the AARs i just dont see how he did it. What troops he used for China steamroll?, most of combat units in China that are in Jap hands are 15/15 - 25/25 exp/morale (feinitly 50-60% of units afaik).

not really [;)]

These are just 46 of the 113 units just in northern and eastern china without additional units from reinforcements, manchukuo and Korea.
You can in fact use every single combat unit for combat as there are plenty of garrisons if you organize yourself [:)]

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Take a look at the AAR by Aztez, he's not just been on the defensive, he's been chased out of every town his opponent send decent forces to. Mind you, I'm not saying there is anything wrong, not many PBEM have gone on long enough to give the allied player a chance to stabalize the front, but the situation isn't too rosy either.

<Note I read threads like this, so be careful what is said. Absolutely nothing wrong in what you wrote, just providing a caution for anyone who might want to chime in>

I think one key is that the Chinese can't be too aggressive, certainly not at the beginning. aztez tried to take at least three cities, Ichang, Sinyang, and he had a stack headed to someplace like Kweisui before it got routed. I don't think the chinese have the supply or troops to go on the offensive. How much difference that makes in the other areas I don't know, but I would like to think he's low on supply.

I do think the artillery is overpowered.

A couple of other observations; note these are based on only 2 months of activity so don't take them as gospel or the final answer. I'd be curious to hear what any of the devs think about China.

REST, REST, REST. Both sides start with a significant number of disablements in most of their units. The vast majority of my Chinese army was on rest at the beginning of the war. If you're units are resting and the other guys' are moving then you are getting stronger and he isn't.

Recon is important. Especially for the JFB. Not only do you find out where the units are, but a neat little thing is that if you have good enough intel you get the directional arrows to tell where they are going. <Now I'm telling all my secrets. Time to find some new secrets> A couple of times I've seen Chinese units infiltrating and been able to pre-position a unit to take them out. Especially fun when they are crossing a river to get to you, I had one unit that literally destroyed itself attacking.

The herding cats defense doesn't seem as effective. In Witp-classic, a bunch of little units behind IJA lines could be a big problem. Seems less so in AE. Two reasons: IJA has a bunch of little units like route brigades and tax collectors that can pursue and take out little forces, or big forces that have been routed once or twice by a "real unit". Second, it seems like ZOCs aren't persistent, although I haven't totally convinced myself of that yet. So just because 14 peasants armed with pitchforks crossed my road doesn't mean I can't use my road anymore.

One other note on "which units are being used" - mostly I use the better units but I do use the junky units when they're close, but the comment about them being disabled at a very high rate is accurate; they usually need to rest for a while after any series of combats. I have bought some armor out of Manchuria with PPs; I *like* armor - fast and sturdy. The comment about some cities being unguarded I won't comment on [:D]. But note that the Japanese do have good mobility on the rail line. But the overall key to success is getting local superiority. Especially if you can catch the troops in the open, preferably clear terrain. If I were playing China the vast majority of my guys would be holed up in cities.

A last hint, mainly for the JFB. Strategic movement on the rails is very fast. You can put some units in strategic mode and hold them as a reserve. They can quickly get where they are needed if it's on the rail line, and if it's close to the rail line you move the reserve to City A on the rail, and use the units in City A to go whereever.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

I dont know whats the whining on allied side in China, Im Jap player and cant do jack shit there [&:]
And at the begning theres just no saving Ichang and Singyang at least i cant...
And if I do acomplish something it seems its due to alot of luck, lack of supplies in Chinesee hands after one or two turn of fights and obligatory use of shock attcks wich depletes Jap forces alot.
Havent won a single fight with deliberate attack, not even one and I did try...

TBH, Ichang is indefensible, I always abandon it and pull back to a defensible line further south. That was even the case in Vanilla.

[Brady]

No mater what side you play if your playing the Ai, you can mess with the Ai in China, this with just those forces that are in China proper, not Manchuko. For example Playing the Allies I am about to take Hong Kong Back from the Ai, having taken Canton already.

If your Playing a Human, its a diferent mater entirley, generaly if both players are somewhat practced, a stale mate will ensue over time, unless the Japanese bring in forces from out of theater, then they can move the front along.

Historicaly the Japanese did run the map in China later in the war, their not having done so priour to that was largely a mater of a lack of will to do so.

The important thing for the Chinese player to do in a PBEM game is to consoladate their forces and shorten the line, build forts and hunker down and weather the storm.

Keeping Burma open for as long as posable helps to because of the suplys that flow into china through their.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: erstad

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Take a look at the AAR by Aztez, he's not just been on the defensive, he's been chased out of every town his opponent send decent forces to. Mind you, I'm not saying there is anything wrong, not many PBEM have gone on long enough to give the allied player a chance to stabalize the front, but the situation isn't too rosy either.

<Note I read threads like this, so be careful what is said. Absolutely nothing wrong in what you wrote, just providing a caution for anyone who might want to chime in>

I think one key is that the Chinese can't be too aggressive, certainly not at the beginning. aztez tried to take at least three cities, Ichang, Sinyang, and he had a stack headed to someplace like Kweisui before it got routed. I don't think the chinese have the supply or troops to go on the offensive. How much difference that makes in the other areas I don't know, but I would like to think he's low on supply.

I do think the artillery is overpowered.

A couple of other observations; note these are based on only 2 months of activity so don't take them as gospel or the final answer. I'd be curious to hear what any of the devs think about China.

REST, REST, REST. Both sides start with a significant number of disablements in most of their units. The vast majority of my Chinese army was on rest at the beginning of the war. If you're units are resting and the other guys' are moving then you are getting stronger and he isn't.

Recon is important. Especially for the JFB. Not only do you find out where the units are, but a neat little thing is that if you have good enough intel you get the directional arrows to tell where they are going. <Now I'm telling all my secrets. Time to find some new secrets> A couple of times I've seen Chinese units infiltrating and been able to pre-position a unit to take them out. Especially fun when they are crossing a river to get to you, I had one unit that literally destroyed itself attacking.

The herding cats defense doesn't seem as effective. In Witp-classic, a bunch of little units behind IJA lines could be a big problem. Seems less so in AE. Two reasons: IJA has a bunch of little units like route brigades and tax collectors that can pursue and take out little forces, or big forces that have been routed once or twice by a "real unit". Second, it seems like ZOCs aren't persistent, although I haven't totally convinced myself of that yet. So just because 14 peasants armed with pitchforks crossed my road doesn't mean I can't use my road anymore.

One other note on "which units are being used" - mostly I use the better units but I do use the junky units when they're close, but the comment about them being disabled at a very high rate is accurate; they usually need to rest for a while after any series of combats. I have bought some armor out of Manchuria with PPs; I *like* armor - fast and sturdy. The comment about some cities being unguarded I won't comment on [:D]. But note that the Japanese do have good mobility on the rail line. But the overall key to success is getting local superiority. Especially if you can catch the troops in the open, preferably clear terrain. If I were playing China the vast majority of my guys would be holed up in cities.

A last hint, mainly for the JFB. Strategic movement on the rails is very fast. You can put some units in strategic mode and hold them as a reserve. They can quickly get where they are needed if it's on the rail line, and if it's close to the rail line you move the reserve to City A on the rail, and use the units in City A to go whereever.

I'am willing to comment couple of things without going into any details regarding the ongoing game.

a) There are not too much supplies in hand but it is not as bad. I hate to think about PBEM where resource bombings are ok.
b) Yeah. I did attack those but those were not a major defeats by any means.
c) Artillery is very powerful and I think it is too powerful at the moment. As you stated.
d) Armoured units are eating up chinese for dinner due to the lack of guns defending it.
e) Forts are pretty much useless. I have had several encounters where units were sitting behind lvl 3 forts and that didn't amount to much.

Chinese don't have much in terms of offensive power which is good.

I think that by putting all the forts to level 0 was not such an good idea. Taking the above into consideration.

I'am not going to comment more in detail here since we got the game ongoing. I think I revealed enough already.

[khyberbill]

If you are not dug in well Arty will kill you like there is no tomorrow!

I was behind lvl 4 fort. You cant raise the fort lvl beyond 6 with the Chinese due to the limitation on supply. Morale was in the 40s to 50s, I had been resting some of the troops and morale does rise noticeably when they are in rest mode.

[khyberbill]

I dont know whats the whining on allied side in China, Im Jap player and cant do jack **** there
And at the begning theres just no saving Ichang and Singyang at least i cant...
And if I do acomplish something it seems its due to alot of luck, lack of supplies in Chinesee hands after one or two turn of fights and obligatory use of shock attcks wich depletes Jap forces alot.
Havent won a single fight with deliberate attack, not even one and I did try...

Concentrate your artillery. Don't spread them about. As for supply, toggle that + switch. It seems to work to get supply to the city closest to where your action is taking place. Set some troops on reserve. Don't shock attack, just bombard for a few turns then an occasional deliberate attack. Once the Chinese retreat, the troops on reserve will pursue and really do some damage. My opponent has been using these tactics and slaughtering me in China.

[khyberbill]

Means Jap player is using his good units to attack while leaving those RGC's defending.
However this requires alot of shock attacking that depletes Jap units, wonder what happens to units after 1-3 weeks of shock attacking and moving around.
And it seems that allied player hasnt exploited the fact that Jap bases are now defended by weak units since his truly Jap divisions are on attack.

My opponent has captured numerous cities from me in China and Burma with lots of bombardment, and not one shock attack.

[khyberbill]

I'am willing to comment couple of things without going into any details regarding the ongoing game.

a) There are not too much supplies in hand but it is not as bad. I hate to think about PBEM where resource bombings are ok.
b) Yeah. I did attack those but those were not a major defeats by any means.
c) Artillery is very powerful and I think it is too powerful at the moment. As you stated.
d) Armoured units are eating up chinese for dinner due to the lack of guns defending it.
e) Forts are pretty much useless. I have had several encounters where units were sitting behind lvl 3 forts and that didn't amount to much.

Chinese don't have much in terms of offensive power which is good.

I think that by putting all the forts to level 0 was not such an good idea. Taking the above into consideration.

I'am not going to comment more in detail here since we got the game ongoing. I think I revealed enough already.

I have been on the receiving end in my PBEM and I agree with what you say. The developers say it is WAD so that is that. Rest does help, but one doesnt get enough time to rest. Forts at lvl 4 or below appear to be worthless. Sort of like a condom, makes you feel safe while you are getting..... Armor set in reserve will pursue and savage a retreating column.

[Astarix]

I'm currently playing a game vs. the AI.&nbsp; In China I noticed that setting my defenses in bases in clear terrain, no matter how good the fort level, does not work very well, unless my units are low in disruption, have 80+ prep and artillery support and high supply.&nbsp;

Generally I try to set up a defense in rough and broken terrain, and as much as possible behind rivers.&nbsp; Spending the PP to upgrade the leaders is also well worth the investment.&nbsp; Chinese leaders tend to be so poor at start that this can be the difference between a (-) and no modifier.&nbsp; I've had several instances where the AI has crossed a river into bad terrain and been smashed badly.&nbsp; For the Chinese, everything counts.&nbsp; The forces that are going to be on the sharp end need the best possible leaders they can get, as much supply, prep, morale, rest, arty and difficult terrain you can lay your hands on.&nbsp; Also, don't forget support.&nbsp; The Chinese have tons of HQ units all over the map.&nbsp; Get em to the front line, it helps.

Strategically, you will notice that the Chinese start with 3 cities that have "broken" industry that needs to be repaired, turn all of this off for the moment.&nbsp; Chungking, Lanchow and Chang Sha.&nbsp; I turned all infrastructure upgrading off.&nbsp; Right now the Chinese don't need airfields and ports.&nbsp; They do need forts in the cities they plan to defend, so build these, but choose carefully what you are going to defend.&nbsp; You can't defend every city in the early game, so don't even bother trying.&nbsp; Turn off all replacements, except to arty and engineer and base force units.&nbsp; And then only leave it on for those that are going to be actually fighting or building your forts.&nbsp;

Once i figure out where the Japanese player (in my case the AI) is going to be attacking I will turn on replacements to the units that are going to be in the grinder.&nbsp; If my units get badly disrupted I bring in fresh units and start moving the disabled or weakend units out of the line.&nbsp; If you do get units that get destroyed, no big deal, they return in 30 days at Chungking.

Getting back to the damaged cities.&nbsp; Chungking, Changsha and Lanchow, I repair these cities but do this purposefully.&nbsp; I repair the LI first, then the HI and then the Resources.&nbsp; The Chinese have more resources than they have industry to use it, so repairing the Industry first makes sense.&nbsp; But remember that each repair uses 1k supply and your supply level has to be 10k or more in order for a point to be repaired.&nbsp; I start with Chungking, because this is where the Chinese Army is born.&nbsp; At this point in my game vs. the AI I have a surplus of supply in Chungking of 45k.&nbsp; If a unit is destroyed, once it reappears at Chungking, I turn on its replacements, put it on rest/training and let it fill out.&nbsp; I will also bring units that have been mangled in combat, but still have at least 40% of their TOE back to Chungking to rest and refit.&nbsp; A couple of weeks at Chungking and they are ready for combat again.

I am using my bombers to help move supply around the map inside of China or for recon.&nbsp; Recon works both ways.&nbsp; Knowing what the opponent has and where he has it makes a tremendous difference.&nbsp; Once the Brits start getting their Hurricanes, I bring the AVG home, hopefully its been upgraded to P-40's by now, and I use the H3's to upgrade and fill out some of the I 15 and 1-16 squadrons, then using the i-15's and I-16's that go to the pool to fill out the remaining squadrons as much as possible.&nbsp; The Chinese air force does not have the ability to do anything but defend until '43. So don't try.&nbsp; Again, figure out where the Japanese are attacking and base some fighters nearby.&nbsp; Keep your fighters fresh and rotate squadrons to try and minimize casualties.&nbsp; Once the AVG disbands in July '42 the Chinese are in a rough spot until new models become available.&nbsp; So use the AVG to shoot up the Japanese as much as possible and protect your troops from his air force, while you have em.

My 2 cents on China.

[aztez]

Good tips Astarix.
&nbsp;
As said it is quite a diffrent game vs human opponent. I have no doubt you can kick AI all the way&nbsp;back to Japan.
&nbsp;
I think khyberbill summarized this front quite nicely.
&nbsp;
I would love to go into more details but really I can't. It would sabotage my PBEM game but I think this front is far from balanced.
&nbsp;
..and before anybody starts jumping around and calling that statement as an call for deathstar chinese movement than just read the following.
&nbsp;
"Chinese don't have much in terms of offensive power which is good"

&nbsp;