Countering allied bombers

[aprezto]

I'll admit, I am playing as the Japanese. A few posts as such may have given the game away.

Anyway, I've always had the heavy bomber on my side, but I have to admit that in WitP:AE the heavy bombers (and it appears the mediums) are awful hard to stop. Well put it this way: impossible.

Of course there are some clever people out there, some I am after a few pointers for what works.

the situation:

Guadcanal.

Since it is all about Lunga or PM, I decided it would be PM. So, that captured, I readied myself for the onslaught. Fighters based at PM and at other bases flying LRCAP.
The issue is, the heavy bombers are better fighters than my fighters are, and there doesn't appear to be any land units on the map with decent Flak to try and take them out using that technique. I've disbanded heavy ships in the port in the hope they'll join in but that's a dangerous game with Port attacks.

So PM is a right off. OK - no worries, I kinda expected that. But now the heavies have so much range they can smash anything from anywhere - I mean I was hit in Shortlands from Noumea!!!

Now I know the allied heavies were pretty hardy beasts, and I remember someone vouching for a single B-17 getting through to target after being attacked by about 17 zeros. But I am pretty sure the allies had fighters, and that they used them to escort bombers, but they appear invulnerable in this simulation so you have little requirement to do it. That does not feel 'real' and certainly doesn't feel 'game balanced'.

Is this the way it was, heavy bombers revisiting the same target for 10 days solid, without fighter escort, with very little in the way of lost numbers, despite as many as 30 enemy fighters oppoing them?

[tigercub]

if you were playing the full campaign i could help but not is this one sided battle this is very hard for the japs to do much ,The zero and flak is all you have Good luck.

Tiger!

[Streptokok]

I predict hordes of allied players and short supply of Japanese [:'(]

[aprezto]

Hi Tiger;

I'll admit to not having played a long way into the GC, there just aren't enough allied heavy bombers in the early game to test this out, but you are saying that there are ways of combating them in the GC - all hope is not lost? I know there will be better flak units, but the zero is the best Jap fighter (I think) and they may as well not be there in the Guadalcanal scenario. Maybe this scenario has nerfed the zero?

Streptokok;
It certainly feels that way. I will say that the attraction was more because I was playing a less experienced player (I know we are all relatively new, but I figured vanilla WitP experience would count) so took on the Japs where I have experience with the Allies.
It may mirror reality but having an unstoppable weapon, that causes great damage, and has incredible range, is not very game balanced in my opinion. Still, that does appear to be the 'point' of this scenario - it's very tough as the Japs.

[Mynok]

Um....4E bombers are much tamer than in Witp. MUCH tamer.

[aprezto]

Tamer? In what way? Tamer in the damage they can do? Maybe so, but certainly not in your ability to counter them. In WitP you could stack a location with CAP and at least bring some of them down. They still got through, but you could reduce the numbers. In AE they also have a much greater reach, granted recon has a greater influence, so targeting out of the way locations is probably counter productive, but if you can recon the place then it's on.

[Streptokok]

Anyway consider this a newb post and feel free to laugh: [:D]

Since I sucked hard in air combat in my patched campaign I did some tests and for example I found that Claudes do a "good" job defending against B-17D attacking Palau from Mindanao.
Why I have no clue but they damage almost all of the attacking 17's and even managed to shoot down one here and there.
I checked how AI did by cheating and loading Allied side after fights and noticed that bunch of them crash on landing or dont return at all even tough they werent destroyed during raid after meeting Claudes. 2nd and 3rd attacks were repulsed by B-17 aborting raids, probably to low morale and being "pounded" by Claudes.

Makes no sense? No but it works in my game...

So maybe rotate other type of fighters and see if you can find type that can do most damage?


------

You may laugh at me now [:'(]

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: aprezto

Tamer? In what way? Tamer in the damage they can do? Maybe so, but certainly not in your ability to counter them. In WitP you could stack a location with CAP and at least bring some of them down. They still got through, but you could reduce the numbers. In AE they also have a much greater reach, granted recon has a greater influence, so targeting out of the way locations is probably counter productive, but if you can recon the place then it's on.

Tamer is the damage they do. Tamer in how few of them there are. Tamer in that they are much harder to keep flying due to maintenance.

Opposing them still helps because it can damage them and possibly make them turn back due to morale check issues. Zeros are a poor choice for that but you don't have a lot of options in the GC scenario.

[aprezto]

Hi Streptokok;

Unfortunately you don't get much choice in the Guad scenario - just A6M2 or A6M3. It does sound though, like the heavies aren't as bad in the GC. I can't be sure there as Guad is based much later in 42 and therefore numbers are greater. But certainly, in Guad, the zeros may damage the B-17s but very few are going down due to A2A. Ops is reasonable, but I am uncertain if the Ops loss has anything to do with damage incurred during combat. The other thing is that my opponent manages to keep the numbers up day after day with only the weather creating respite.

[aprezto]

Hi Mynok;

Um, OK, I am still getting raids of 100 heavy bombers. They did whittle down in numbers after 10 days of bombing to about 60. Some of that might have been due to zero opposition. However, I can say that PM is absolutely shattered in the first day's raid, and then kept so in the second. The next 8 days were unnecessary. He could have changed targets to Lae, Buna and Milne Bay from there and all of NG would have been crushed.
I have 110 engineers at PM. They cannot repair that damage in any less time than a fortnight.
All I am saying is that an opposition of fighters should be able to increase that damaged ratio. I should be able to heavily reduce his numbers, even if I can't kill them. I don't appear to be able to do this.

By your reckoning this is as it should be and the Jap just has to stay out of range?

I would argue that if this were the case that the allies would have no need for fighter escort, yet they appeared to.

[TheTomDude]

Aah B-17s. I feel with you bro. I hate them as well. As a Jap player I hate how these flying tanks can't be stopped by the jap fighters. I'm in a GC in October '42 against the AI and I was not able to stop them. I even pulled back fighters from Lunga because it was pounded day by day by a hundred B-17s from Luganville and Ndeni. Since I pulled them back to Munda the AI found another target. It's pounding Nauru Island (!) from Ndeni. How funny is that. The 4Es seem to have a much bigger range now than in stock. And Ndeni with a lvl 5 airfield? I don't know. All I know is it is not possible to stop the B-17s with Zeros or Oscars which is all you have until mid '43.

[aprezto]

Hi TheTomDude;

Yeah, I mean I am usually an AFB, so I know how important the heavies are to their tactics. I also know this is a simulation, and a grognard one at that - people (I'm not one of them) want to see the weapons involved being able to fly the distances, carry the bomb loads, shoot with all the guns available - blah blah - that it was possible in the war.

I am just of the opinion that this blunts the game for a Jap player. For his own sanity he needs to be able to do something versus an in-game weapon. The arguement that zeros can damage B-17s and that puts them on the deck for a more extended period (because they are heavy bombers and require more maintenance to get airworthy), lacks conviction when on average I would lose 2-3 zeros per attempted defence to maybe 1/2-1/4 B-17s. And as you've noted as well, this doesn't stop them from flying.

In my opinion there is nothing you can do about heavy bomber attacks, and it really doesn't matter if you suffer big attacks or small, if they are unstoppable it just takes a bit more time.

[Cribtop]

I'm playing Guad as Japan vs AI, and the AI mercilessly pounded Shortlands and Lunga (which I re-took after a successful carrier engagement) with B-17F from Noumea.

It was so bad that I evacuated all planes from Lunga. CAP of Rufies(!) and A6M2s/3s at Shortlands got decent damage but nothing earth shattering and didn't actually shoot down a single B-17. It seemed to work better with the A6M3s (best climb rate) at 12K, Rufies at 15K and A6M2s at 18K. That way one of the groups was at close to the raids' exact altitude.

Then for some reason after about a week of daily bombing in Oct. 42 the 4Es went away and haven't returned. No idea why. Now that the 17s have stopped I re-occupied Lunga with Vals and Zeros to help stop a re-supply effort of the cut off USMC troops. The beasts still didn't return. Extended leave?

[McSeem]

I've played Guad as Japan.
When I put some planes to any AF in range of B-17E (later F) - Lae, Wewak, Buna, Kavieng - AI begins to raid them. If count of active fighters became ~20 or more, AI stops raids. For example 1st Sentai in Kavieng converted to Tony and AI immediately begins to bomb, I moved one more fighter sentai to Kavieng - AI stops.

[vlcz]

I´m playing the GC Allied side, but I think have a tip for you, morale.

My B17 are "poundering" (in 42 not really too much) Rabaul, Cap never destroys one of them, but several returns damaged, and they plainly refuse to fly again for a time.

Group morale suffer badly making unescorted opposed bombing runs so keep shooting them.

[rattovolante]

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude

I'm in a GC in October '42 against the AI and I was not able to stop them. [...]
All I know is it is not possible to stop the B-17s with Zeros or Oscars which is all you have until mid '43.

Have you tried using Nicks? I plan to experiment this when I reach mid-42 in my GC vs. AI

5th Sentai, 13th Sentai and 84 I.F. Chutai convert to Nicks (you have to buy out 5th and 13th from the HI). 4th Sentai converts too, but it's permanently restricted.

From Dec 1942 there is also the Ki-46-IIIb Dinah which is a fighter (i.e., with PDU on any IJA fighter unit can convert to it) mounting a 37mm cannon, but I have doubts regarding its worth, as it has very low climb rate and WitPStaff gives it an abysmal combat rating (it's actually so low that I suspect WitPStaff might undervalue heavier cannons vs. heavy bombers, I plan to test this out).

[goran007]

Type:
Single-seat interceptor and (II onwards) fighter-bomber
Origin: Nakajima
Allied Code Name: Tojo
First Flight: August 1940
Service Delivery: May 1942
Final Delivery: N/A
Number Produced: 1,233


Performance:
Maximum Speed (Ki-44-Ia): 360 mph (579 km/h)
Maximum Speed (Ki-44-IIc): 376 mph (605 km/h)
Initial climb (Ki-44-IIc): 3,940 ft./min (1200 m/min)
Service Ceiling (Ki-44-IIc): 11,200m (36,745 ft.)
Range (Internal Fuel): 560 Miles (900 km)
Endurance: 2 Hours 20 Minutes

Ki-44-IIc:
Two 12.7mm Type I machine guns in fuselage
Two 40mm Ho-301 low velocity cannon in wings[&o]
Note: Fires caseless ammunition at 400 rpm
Or
Four 20mm Cannon.[&o]

This variant of Tojo isent in a game, capitalist Matrix didnt want US to loose the war[:)]

'The Ki-44 was a complete departure from the standard manueverability emphasis placed on Japanese aircraft design. Though disliked by pilots, and deadly to less experienced pilots, the Demon was moderately successful in the interception role. A notable mission occured when a small force of Ki-44-(unknown model) intercepted 120 B-29's on February 19, 1945 and destroyed ten of them.'

bringing down unescorted bombers is all about pilot expirience, rate of climbing, swarms of interceptors, tactics, big guns and radar. If all met, there is no way unescorted bombers will come back from a mission.

[rattovolante]

ORIGINAL: goran007

This variant of Tojo isent in a game, capitalist Matrix didnt want US to loose the war[:)]

? come on, even if true it would make no sense at all

[tigercub]

ORIGINAL: aprezto

Hi Tiger;

I'll admit to not having played a long way into the GC, there just aren't enough allied heavy bombers in the early game to test this out, but you are saying that there are ways of combating them in the GC - all hope is not lost? I know there will be better flak units, but the zero is the best Jap fighter (I think) and they may as well not be there in the Guadalcanal scenario. Maybe this scenario has nerfed the zero?

Streptokok;
It certainly feels that way. I will say that the attraction was more because I was playing a less experienced player (I know we are all relatively new, but I figured vanilla WitP experience would count) so took on the Japs where I have experience with the Allies.
It may mirror reality but having an unstoppable weapon, that causes great damage, and has incredible range, is not very game balanced in my opinion. Still, that does appear to be the 'point' of this scenario - it's very tough as the Japs.

Fighting the B17
Yes in the GC you can combat the B17 and the B24 but its hard work the first 6 months you have only the Zero and flak but they have only a few heavy bombers.
But then 5/42 the Ki451a twin comes with good fire power 60 a month production rate is needed, placed in key spots to defend only,good for killing small boats ships too, away from fighters and in places like Rabaul,Rangoon and any factorys and oil in range of the big boys.

Next KI44 needs a push (150-200 air frames) your second main figher can take on any allied fighter at this point of the war, if you are lucky you may have him 7/42 then the tony Ki61 due 2/43 but because the KI44 comes first there is little room to make a big push in production for the KI61 and as its not realy much better(but it does have armor) if at all a small production run even a change over to the jack to help bring him earler.

But the prize bomber killer N1K1-j george due 9/43 its firepower is massive for a jap fighter 4-20mm and 2 7.7mm guns when this baby Attacks the allied player will be forced to escort or pay the heavy price, if you tweak the production to 100 about air frames a month then it will come in earler, at the same time the jack comes out a better air to air fighter but lighter guns 2-20mm and 2-7.7mm.

At this time in the war 3/44 about the allied air power will be in big numbers will start to bite very hard on your aircrew
you will have still some very nice planes coming but if you have a good allied player he will grind down even the best japanese player during 44.

Knowing how much to make in airframes and engines also very hard to work out, The japs have 2 battles one is with the Allies the other is with its production and finding the balance.

But the Bigest key of all is to win in 43 and stop the Rot.

Tiger!

[tigercub]

ORIGINAL: rattovolante

ORIGINAL: goran007

This variant of Tojo isent in a game, capitalist Matrix didnt want US to loose the war[:)]

? come on, even if true it would make no sense at all

its there in the patch it was left out by mistake

Tiger!