AE Air Issues and Air OOB Issues [OUTDATED]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Could we please have an authoritative comment on Allied A/C production rates? See the "Allied Replacement Aircraft Replacement Rate" thread). I can understand that for AI play balance reasons Japanese A/C production could be boosted. That isn't what concerns me. I am concerned that the Allied A/C production rates are way off, by more than an order of magnitude.

For F4F (3s 3as and 4s) I get about 7000+ total production. I am a little uncertain as to how many were lend lease but I don't recall hearing that the majority went to Canada nor British units in the Far East. I am pretty sure 90% of them didn't go to the ETO.  That "7000" could be 7500 or 7700 or so. But that is only a 10% error.

At 53/month (counting the recon models in the total to get to 53) that number can be built in 136 months ie by about August 1954.

For total production I get a ratio of about 7700 F4Fs (not to mention about 12,000 F6Fs) to about 11,000 A6M (_all_ A6M models 2>8). That isn't a ratio of 6:1 in favor of the Japanese economy.

I keep being told the Allied A/C prodcution is carefully researched and spot on. How do the Allies get to 7000+ F4Fs?

The problem with this is that with those allied production rates a war of attrition is a winning strategy for Japan and that doesn't seem all correct.

When you did your calculations did you factor in the:

FM-2 - 128 frames per month for 20 months = 2560
FM-1 - 30 frames per month for 10 months = 300
Martlet II - 9 Frames per month for 6 months = 54
Martlet IV - 6 Frames per month for 9 months = 54
F4F-4 - 45 frames per month for 15 months = 675
F4F-3 - 8 Frames per month for 4 months = 32
F4F-3A - 4 frames per month for 4 months = 16
Wildcat V - 9 frames per month for 16 months = 144
Wildcat VI - 12 frames per month till the end lets say 4 = 48

Plus the 229 FM-1s that arrive with units
Plus the 468 FM-2s that arrive with units
Plus the 40 Martlet IIs that arrive with units
Plus the 24 Martlet IVs that arrive with units
Plus the 18 Wildcat V's that arrive with units
Plus the 24 Wilcat VIs that arrive with units
Plus the 94 F4F-3s that start with units
Plus the 33 F4F-3As that arrive with units
Plus the 290 F4F-4s that arrive with units


All of that totals about 5103 frames the player sees in the game.

Add in an additional 800 frames that went to the British - that takes the total to 5900 frames accounted for....

Only 2,000 more frames to account for.... where could these have gone -

Ranger fielded 54 F4Fs for Torch in VF-41 and VF-9, but lost 12 presumably these were replaced...

Later VF-4 on Ranger was equipped with 27 F4F's

VGF-29 on Santee fielded 12 F4F's for Torch but lost 10, presumably these were replaced....

VGF-26 on Sangamon field 12 F4F-s for Torch

...then we have a number of training squadrons on Lake Michigan using F4Fs.

I'll have to lookup additional navy Squadrons in the Atlantic.....I imagine if I try long enough I can account for a fair percentage of the Wildcat production...And if you are truly industrious you can pour through the weekly allocation of US Naval Aircraft on all fronts with the exception of Training - at this website -

http://www.history.navy.mil/a-record/ww ... loc-ac.htm

[RevRick]

A most detailed and cogent explication of the question asked, Brother Forest. I recognize that level of detail can become more time consuming than imagined by virtually any of the amateur historians or occasional researchers, or even the most detail oriented auditor, usually resident here. And your presented evidence only concerns one variety of airframe. Neither have I read all of the threads, or messages in the threads about the determination of the level of production/replacement allocated in the game. I simply do not have that kind of time.

Perhaps my primary concern is that from what scant evidence I have seen from running a computer to computer continuous game to reach beyond the initial stages of the Japanese expansion into the Pacific, it appears that the computer gamer (which I virtually exclusively play, also because of time limitations) can manipulate the production level of the game to reach a virtually unlimited supply of whatever airframe desired. On one such date, when I interrupted the game, the computer showed, on Dec 23, 1073 P-40E airframes present for allocation to the allied side of the equation. The USN ships had full complements of all airframes present on their flight decks. Bomber squadrons were almost completely filled out. The IJN side already had 212 A6M2s in production per month, with 260 some odd already allocated for that month or in the pool. At the beginning of the scenarios, the production value was 56, with some 30 in the pool. The Vals were in good shape, nothing to report extraordinary there. But surprisingly, the Kates, with zero production and zero replacement rates, had already produced some 180 completed aircraft ex nihilo. I won't even mention what the dreaded Betty production had grown to, but with initial production of 26/mo., the IJA had 42 in the pool, and had used 114 in the 16 days from the time of Pearl Harbor until 23Dec41.

My question evolves around whether this is what the AI does in a game with me, or is it just a result of the Computer vs. Computer setting, or is it the result of some modifications I made to production values of aircraft on the Allied side? I never touched the IJA side of production, just changed some dates and production values on the USN/USAAF side. By the way, I never changed production of P-40Es to the point that over 1000 aircraft were produced in basically two weeks. But the AI did something, to produce those beastly numbers.. And I wish I had 1000 P-40Es to play with at that early a date.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

A most detailed and cogent explication of the question asked, Brother Forest. I recognize that level of detail can become more time consuming than imagined by virtually any of the amateur historians or occasional researchers, or even the most detail oriented auditor, usually resident here. And your presented evidence only concerns one variety of airframe. Neither have I read all of the threads, or messages in the threads about the determination of the level of production/replacement allocated in the game. I simply do not have that kind of time.

Perhaps my primary concern is that from what scant evidence I have seen from running a computer to computer continuous game to reach beyond the initial stages of the Japanese expansion into the Pacific, it appears that the computer gamer (which I virtually exclusively play, also because of time limitations) can manipulate the production level of the game to reach a virtually unlimited supply of whatever airframe desired. On one such date, when I interrupted the game, the computer showed, on Dec 23, 1073 P-40E airframes present for allocation to the allied side of the equation. The USN ships had full complements of all airframes present on their flight decks. Bomber squadrons were almost completely filled out. The IJN side already had 212 A6M2s in production per month, with 260 some odd already allocated for that month or in the pool. At the beginning of the scenarios, the production value was 56, with some 30 in the pool. The Vals were in good shape, nothing to report extraordinary there. But surprisingly, the Kates, with zero production and zero replacement rates, had already produced some 180 completed aircraft ex nihilo. I won't even mention what the dreaded Betty production had grown to, but with initial production of 26/mo., the IJA had 42 in the pool, and had used 114 in the 16 days from the time of Pearl Harbor until 23Dec41.

My question evolves around whether this is what the AI does in a game with me, or is it just a result of the Computer vs. Computer setting, or is it the result of some modifications I made to production values of aircraft on the Allied side? I never touched the IJA side of production, just changed some dates and production values on the USN/USAAF side. By the way, I never changed production of P-40Es to the point that over 1000 aircraft were produced in basically two weeks. But the AI did something, to produce those beastly numbers.. And I wish I had 1000 P-40Es to play with at that early a date.

Bottomline - a number of assists were provided to the AI...the details of which I do not possess....but needless to say one was in airframe production.

Human players do not receive the assists. I imagine that as various games play themselves out a determination will be made as to whether to further boost or deflate any particular AI assist.

Now as to the hue and cry about human players and Japanese airframe production vs Allied production -

AE is not WitP

The Japanese Human Player in AE will be far more constrained in their industrial expansion simply by the mere fact that they have to feed the industrial beast. In order to feed the beast they need ships to transport resources and oil/ fuel. In order to move the resources and oil/fuel, Ships themselves will need fuel. So any expansion in airframes will necessitate more and more ships running to and fro to feed the beast.This fuel consumption will in turn create a further constriction on Japanese operational capability. IMO its best to let the game play out and see where the experiences of WitP are no longer relevant....rather than simply looking at one narrow aspect and trying to apply experiences to it that no longer apply.

[Dili]

Treespider for Torch:

Ranger VF-9,VF-41: 27+27 F4F
Sangamon VGF-26: 12 F4F
Santee VGF-29: 14 F4F
Suwanee VGF-27,VGF-28,VGS-30: 11+12+6 F4F

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Treespider for Torch:

Ranger VF-9,VF-41: 27+27 F4F
Sangamon VGF-26: 12 F4F
Santee VGF-29: 14 F4F
Suwanee VGF-27,VGF-28,VGS-30: 11+12+6 F4F

Thanks Dili...but I'm not going to spend the time trying to account for every last Wildcat frame.... I'm going to rely on the fact that we had a fairly top-notch research team and the numbers they came up with will get the human player into the ballpark of what was available for combat units in the Pacific theater.

[Dili]

Well i had just this at hand because of my Witm search...

[John Lansford]

Treespider,
 
Are you saying that the Japanese AI does not have to worry about "feeding the industrial beast" when you point out the Japanese Player does?  I'm aware that airframe production was nerfed to give the AI an edge, but if industry in general is not a concern I wonder if I need to rethink my defense strategy.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Treespider,

Are you saying that the Japanese AI does not have to worry about "feeding the industrial beast" when you point out the Japanese Player does? 

No...I'm saying the Human Player is smarter so doesn't receive some of the assist in certain areas that the AI does (depending on setting)

I'm aware that airframe production was nerfed to give the AI an edge,

How exactly was it nerfed?

but if industry in general is not a concern

You shouldn't make that assumption...

I wonder if I need to rethink my defense strategy.

Why is that? The AI still needs Fuel and Supplies and Resources, and it still needs to move that stuff around.

[John Lansford]

It's my understanding that the # of airframes being produced by the Japanese AI is much higher than what Japan produced IRL.  The explanation I've read indicates this was done to "help" the AI survive longer in a campaign game.

[RevRick]

After all the recent discussions, I really hate to be the one to bring this up, HOWEVER, being full of either bravery, brilliance, or bovine scatology, I noticed that on the update, in only one scenario (#1) did the F4F-4 (ducks, looks around, pokes head back up) monthly production/replacement level increase to 45. The rest of the scenarios in my install still have production of 35. I have tried a reinstall, but the song remains the same. (I'll put on my romex suit now!)

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

After all the recent discussions, I really hate to be the one to bring this up, HOWEVER, being full of either bravery, brilliance, or bovine scatology, I noticed that on the update, in only one scenario (#1) did the F4F-4 (ducks, looks around, pokes head back up) monthly production/replacement level increase to 45. The rest of the scenarios in my install still have production of 35. I have tried a reinstall, but the song remains the same. (I'll put on my romex suit now!)

[:D] Probably an oversight on the part of the person making all of the other database updates included in the Patch.

Won't do you any good for ongoing games - but for new games against the AI - simply make the adjustment in the editor until corrected in Patch 2.

[rockmedic109]

OUCH.  Now you tell. me. 

[invernomuto]

With patch 01 Japanese have 4 different versions for Ki-48 Lily.

Ki-48-Ib as level bomber
Ki-48-IIa as level bomber
Ki-48-IIb as dive bomber
Ki-48-IIc as dive bomber

Seems to be always an upgrade of the same A/C. Is this WAD?

[jcjordan]

Should the Wirraway be classified as a FB instead of a LB? It wasn't very good but just a stop gap measure until more planes were available but did perform cap functions along w/ bombing mission.

[langleyCV1]

In Scen 6 or 9 why is 488 Squadron still upgradeing to Dutch Hurricanes!

MJT

[Splinterhead]

ORIGINAL: langleyCV1

In Scen 6 or 9 why is 488 Squadron still upgradeing to Dutch Hurricanes!

MJT

Probably because they did. A number of aircraft built for the Dutch were taken over by other allied nations. They remain as Dutch aircraft in the game so that a player who doesn't lose the DEI as quickly has the option to use them to upgrade Dutch units instead. (If PDU is enabled)

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead

ORIGINAL: langleyCV1

In Scen 6 or 9 why is 488 Squadron still upgradeing to Dutch Hurricanes!

MJT

Probably because they did. A number of aircraft built for the Dutch were taken over by other allied nations. They remain as Dutch aircraft in the game so that a player who doesn't lose the DEI as quickly has the option to use them to upgrade Dutch units instead. (If PDU is enabled)

When Pappy Gunn swiped those Dutch B 25's...I wonder if he realized he was simply "upgrading"..?[;)]

[langleyCV1]

Thankyou for your reply.

I would like to know where you get your information since only 2-V1G-IV flew the Hurricane in dutch service (in the far east) and the dutch only had 12 Hurricanes.

My information would suggest that the Hurricanes that 488 Squadron flew were came from HMT sussex unload at Singapore on the 13th January 1942. Therefore they should have British markings.

Many Thanks again

MJT

[Splinterhead]

The Dutch only received 12 Hurricanes. A quick websearch shows the Dutch ordered 72-100 Hurricanes; most were never delivered to them. This wasn't unusual. The Americans in the Philippines used "Swedish" P-35s in the Philippines. If Swedish forces were in the game the P-35s would be Swedish P-35s even though they were never in Swedish service in real life.


AE was designed by committee and the air team, according to Tim-Tom, decided to make Dutch purchased aircraft Dutch aircraft even if most were IRL delivered elsewhere, because they could have wound up in Dutch service. I don't have any source to prove such was the case with 288 sqn. But just because they were delivered to Singapore doesn't mean that they weren't part of the Dutch order. I was just trying to save the developers from having to answer the 5927th iteration of FAQ #143. If you have firm sources that indicate the Dutch only ordered 12 Hurricanes, by all means feel free to ignore me. I do not pretend to be the final authority, and apologize if I've wasted your time.[:)]


Note: If in any way that reply reads offensively, it's really not meant to.

[rockmedic109]

The level of detail in this game boggles the mind.  In no other game would or will there be any differentiation of whether an airframe was ordered by one country and used by another.  Much appreciated.  This is truly the holy grail of wargamers.