Case Blue

[Grymme]

Actually the sollution i proposed above doesnt seem so practical. I would have to mutate the SFTs of all wheeled vehicels. thats something like 70 SFTs that has to be mutated. A lot of work and connections.

Hmmm... any other ideas how to simulate use of oil?

[Jeffrey H.]

Hypothetically, oil should affect machinery based transport and general production. Owning certain hexes should allow for increases in either of those. Hows that for a start ?
 

[british exil]

What about bonus points? Enough oil- maybe an Army group gets extra AP? But I think it would be hard to programm.
The more oil you have the further your mobile units can travel.

The oil fields at Grosny and Maikop need to be an incentive enough for the Germans to want to reach them.It's a long way to go just for a few supply points.

Maybe a big pp stack? Or Germany receives a small Army Group, similar to Russia41 when the SU gets it's Shock Armies. Maybe similar to the Shock Armies but in form of SS divisions.

Just a thought or two.

[Grymme]

Well, the scenarios will be more operational than strategic. So i am more trying to capture the feeling of tanks running out of oil than them not being produced.

what i have so far.

The map is divided into nine different regions. Kherson, Crimea, Kharkov, Caucasus Mountain, Stalingrad region, Trans Volga, Don Steppes, Far south etc.

At the start of the round all tanks have movement group GUN and have the description "LOW ON FUEL"

Each round each player recieves a number of oil reinforcement action cards (germans recieve 2 for example).

By playing one of the oil reinforcement cards an oil reinforcement SFT appears in certain locations Kherson for germany for example. This oil reinforcement can be strategicly transfered to different locations on the map.


When you have got the oil reinforcement in the map area where you want your tanks to me movable (Kharkov for example) you play an "fuel Kharkov Region" actioncard. This actioncard mutates all tank SFTs in that particulare region to another different SFT that is exactly the same except it has the normal movement group and doesnt have the "low on fuel" designation. Playing this actioncard also removes all oil on the map (so you would have to play out the oil reinforcements one at a time, this is the one limitation of the system i can find out right now)

The next turn all tanks are again low on fuel, new oil reinforcement cards are added, shipped out, used up etc.

The fun thing would be that each round each player would recieve maybe only 2-3 oil reinforcement cards (+1 if control oilfields). So to which region would you direct your oil supply? And if a group gets cut of somewhere (did someone say Stalinggrad?) it would be pretty difficult to transfer the oil there

The bad things include. A system with areas is clumsy, AI will not be able to use it, people will play out all their reinforcement oil and then get pissed when it all dissapears when they hit the first reinforcement button


I am testing an event. The crux is that i have only converted 2 SFTs of the 70 that need to be converted, but it seems to work fine.

[british exil]

If I understand right, and you play your cards wrong you could have an entire Pzr Gruppe sat idle in the steppe because they were not refueled. Having to wait till the next turn to be refueled, unless Ivan manages to cut them of then they are doomed.

Sounds evil.

But what about producing tankers, lorries that can transport fuel? They could follow a Pzr Armee. Of course these could also run out of fuel, once they have unloaded their cargo.

Your idea would make the supply side of AT very very interesting

[Captain Cruft]

I like the idea of the different "oil" and "non-oil" SFTs. However, as you say the area-based mutation thing is clunky and also a lot of work setting the areaslot codes.

The big problem with SFT mutation, which is inherently a very powerful idea, is that you cannot see what is there before doing the mutate. In fact I would suggest that this is the biggest single problem with the editor. You generally cannot read something before you modify it.

[Grymme]

British: Thats exactly what i am after. And maybe to do the same with artillery shells. But we will see.

Captain: I agree. As powerfull as the editor is, it still has its limitations. But to be honest. Most things can be done. It just takes huge amount of time sometimes. Hmm.. My romanian HQs arent getting any supply. Have you done something special with peoples or something else that could cause that effect?

I have made an upload. The map (complete with graphics etc) is uploaded to this location together with an early version of the Kharkov scenario. The biggest problem i am having with the Kharkkov scenario right now is that combat is "too deadly". Its not very fun to place 7000 points of armies to see 20 % die in the first round of the game. Any ideas on how to limit losses and instead have units retreat a little earlier? (puttin on 25 % retreat, but still)


http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod/Bi ... ieces.html

Its 27 mb so its almost to big for my webpage (i only have 50 mb of webspace). So i will most likely tak it down after a while. Also, as of now you need to have Ostfront installed. I will rerout the 300 or so SFT pictures and symbols, but havent done it yet.

[Captain Cruft]

Yes doing lots of data entry in the editor is definitely not fun. The UI needs to be much more keyboard-driven.

There is no reason any HQs should not get supply due to anything I've done.

[Grymme]

Its all me i found out. I probably placed soviet regime units in there somewhere. I hope it doesnt come across like i am complaining, i really am not. There is just a lot of questions

To be honest i am not sure i have the stomach to complete an Case Blue campaign scenario. I placed 500+ units for the 6 round Kharkov introductary scenario. Then there is the "Edge of the World" scenario that is 19 rounds long. Then there is the different campaigns. Placing 1000+ units for them and 1000-2000 reinforcements could break anyone. Any volunteers?

Its especially not very fun to put in the different division names, but its very rewarding when the scenario is finished.


Here is a screenshot of the Kharkov pocket from the "small" 6 round introductary scenario "Kharkov, failed offensive".

Among things seen are:
- Infantry units
- Police Regiments
- Mountain Divisions
- Cavalry divisions
- Tank & armed brigades
- mech brigades
- Ski brigade
- recon units
- Artillery brigades
- Assault gun battalions

etc ad naseaum

[tweber]

Looks very impressive.  Some thoughts that may make the programing easier without too much realism sacrifice:
 
- For rear units, you could code in their placement with loops, predefined units, and unit adds.  On the plus side, you could lay out large groups.  On the down side, you do not get to differentiate the names very finely.
 
- For oil, I might use the movement modifiers on armored movement types with turn checks.  It is rather simple. 
 
Question for you - Do you have a decent order of battle of the Soviets after Kharkov (say around July 28th or so)?

[Grymme]

Tweber: Thanks. Actually i havent thought about looping. or "each round reinforcements" i mostly use predefined reinforcement lists when it comes to operational scenarios.

About the oil. I am very much up to any improvements in simplicity. Is it possible to do a general check on an movement type that only applies to a special area of the map? If that is possible everything would be much simpler. I am not looking for a general armour slowdone effect. I want the player to have to choose strategicly which units/directions/areas to which he will direct his supply.

I am not sure. I will tell you what i use for Case blue oobs. I have the map, then i have downloaded the latest version of the boardgame play accessory "Vassal". Then i downloaded the available Case blue module and load up the scenario i want to simulate. Also the scenariobooklets and rulebooks for "Case Blue" is downloadable at the homepage of Multiman publishing if anything isnt clear.

http://www.gamersarchive.net/theGamers/archive/ocs.htm

Then i compare the maps in vassal (they are already setup and the maps in AT and place the units. There is something like 15-20 scenarios in the boardgame, so i think there is a complete OOP for both operation Case Blue, Uranus, Operation Typhoon (although that needs the Moscow maps) and much much more.

[Captain Cruft]

Movement modifiers only apply to People types and then within that to SFT classes. AFAIK the only way to apply an effective movement modifier in a specific area would be to actually change the terrain type. That might not actually be as difficult as it sounds, it's something I'm seriously thinking of implementing in my scen.

[Grymme]

Yeah. I am still searching for an acceptable sollution.

Ass for reinforcement lists. My current idea is something like this. Instead of endless reinforcement lists i will make actioncards for each type of unit. Then on round x you recieve an actioncard that places an infantry division on hex x. But of course that wouldnt help the AI. fck. Still looking for a good sollution. Maybe to do the endless transfer lists, but just make the names more generic. It would save something like 50 % of the time.

Made another upload with an almost finished Kharkov scenario. There is an issue with a railroad bug though. Here is a small changelist so far.

Artillery range changed from
1 to 2
2 to 4
3 to 6

Added the following SFTs

RO Mountain Inf
Ski Jaeger
Katuyshka
MC Rifle
Military Police

Added Makeshift road
Changed road system
Inf 25 on plains, wheeled 15
Road/rail Most wheeled 10, inf 15-20
Trail most wheeled 12, inf 15-20

Disabled all events

added NATO counters

Changed HQ range from 3 to 5.

Changed highlight colour

Changed location graphics for loc 35

Added location
Replacement center

Changed Supply action point range to
175
225
275-325

Disabled land anti supply

Changed german & soviet battle vs to 80

changed train to 9000 rail cap. Changed movetype to rail. Changed railmoveonrail to 10AP.

Set rail movement type to rail (it was air10).

Temporarily set supply movement group to infantry

[Grymme]

Work is slowly progressing on a campaign scenario called "operation Typhoon south" which starts in October 1941 and continues till spring 1943. Have made ca 50 % of the OOB. The real challenge will be how to handle production/reinforcements and play balance.

Ive converted 114 of the 240+ SFT pictures.

Added a couple of SFTs. Will try to keep true to Captaina Crufts intentions.

Fiat M14/41 (italian medium tank)
BMW R75 Motorcycle (previously called MC Rifle)
NebelWerfer (a combination of types)
Katuysha (the same)
Marine Infantry
Penal Infantry


Screenshot shows the Italian Fast Corps, Hungarian motorized division, SS Division Wiking, some various other SS units, HQ of 3rd Panzergruppe and off course 12th & 18th Soviet Armies.

[Widell]

[&o]

[Grymme]

Thanks Widell.

Continuing work on the campaign game that will stretch from october 1941 to 1943.

- have finished the initial land and air setup.
- started working on a rough production set.
- Deciced to keep on Captain Crufts weather event
- Decided to keep on Captain Crufts partisan event, but changed it.
- Implemented Aircraft movement modifier event. Will most likely change some of the aircraft stats though.
- Implemented increasing production event.
- Started with german & soviet reinforcement lists.
- have changed SFT pictures up to 140 (of the 232 original ones).


The OOBs for both nations will be semihistorical (arent all). Germans have AG Süd and under that Army and Army corps HQs. Soviet union has Stavka South HQ and Front and Army HQs. Her is the current soviet OOB

Stavka South HQ (a total of 182 units divided on 18 HQs)

- Southwestern Front HQ
----- 6th Army HQ
----- 10th Army HQ
------12th Army HQ
------21st Army HQ
----- 38th Army HQ

- Don Front HQ
--- 9th Army HQ
--- 18th Army HQ
--- 32nd Army HQ
--- 36th Army HQ

- Crimean Front HQ
--- 51st Army HQ
--- Maritime HQ

- Transcaucausus HQ
--- 44th Army HQ
--- 47th Army HQ



A problem overall is that it is difficult to simulate the periods of inactivity that took place between the major offensives. I dont want the soviets to fall down during the winter of 1941 or the germans to break their back. I want there to be minor skirmishing with both sides building up their resources for the big spring offensive. I would like to somehow simulate a built up offensive with ammunition, supply, oil etc.

Screenshot shows most of the map (a couple of rows to the east is missing) with soviet setup.

[Joshuatree]

Impressive. [&o]
Vast areas of ... emptiness. I mean, how do you conquer such a thing? (hex by hex probably) Even the Crimea looks big!

[Grymme]

Thanks Joshua. Its quite large (125*105), but still not unheard of. I think Captain Crufts Ostfront map is larger. If you want to check it out you can download the short Kharkov scenario played on the same map from my webpage.

I am playing a testgame against the AI right now. On round 2 and still fighting on the entrance to Crimea. I think the crimean part of the map is somewhat similar in size to the standalone scenario regarding the Crimean campaign.

Here is the German OOB from south to north

Army Group Süd HQ (195 units in 18 HQs)

11th Army HQ
... 54th Army Corps HQ
... 30th Army Corps HQ
... 49th Mtn Army Corps HQ
... Romanian Mtn Corps HQ

17th Army HQ
.. 2nd Hungarian Army
... 3rd Pz Corps HQ
... Italian Fast Corps HQ

4th Army HQ
... 11th Army Corps HQ
... 32nd Army Corps HQ
... 44th Army Corps HQ
... 55th Army Corps HQ

1st Pz Gruppe HQ
... 14th Pz Corps HQ
... 17th Pz Corps HQ

________________

- Resimplified the production model
- Reintroduced the PP
- Changed most airplane movement structures
- Changed partisan event a little
- Gave Trucks, Wagons, Pack Mules a little LANDCAP (500, 100 & 50). It will still be insignificant compared to trains that have 9000 each.
- Changed train hitpoints from 20 000 to 1 000.
- Gave all the new SFT types item types.
- corrected small mistakes in OOB.

_______________



Crimea drenched in october mud

[Grymme]

Bad news: The work on this mod will take considerably longer time than the 2 months i initially envisioned.
God news: Its fun work.

- Changed land transfer rules.
- Changed Captain Crufts Osttroppen event to three Recruit Cossack events that jump in to give cossack reinforcements if germany captures Rostov, Vorishilograd or Kovorostoy.
- Continuing the endless work of shifting the SFT pictures. I am up to 158 of the 232 SFTs.
- Will most likely have to change the research system since the VP systems are very different. But that will have to wait for a while.
- Implemented reinforcement lists up to january/febuary 1942
- Made a test event called Volga Blocked.

To make the map more interesting if am thinking of implementing the following strategic resources/0bjectivs

- Cossack Reinforcements (already implemented)
- Oil &/or oilfields in Maikop, Grozny & Krasnodar (if i am not mistaken)
- Ammunition for offensives
- Blocking traffic on the Volga


Also i am very much struggling with how to deal with reinforcements for the german minor forces and the SS. Anyone that have any idead on how to do this is very welcome to step forward.

[Grymme]

The scenario is starting to become formed. Each round will be 4 days. It will start in october 1941 and end somewhere during the summer of 1943. So some 100+ rounds.

Some changes.
- Gave Germany some Italian, SS, Romanian and Hungarian production
- Changed range of Artillery. Normal range will be 3. (4 for werfers, 6 heavy artillery)
- Implemented german off map Railnetwork & production
- Reintroduced cargoships, destroyers and cruisers.
- New location. Port with Shipyard.
- Reinforcement lists are up to round 87 (germany/64 russia).
- All picture errors are gone so this is now officially a stand alone scenario
- reintroduced some research (still a lot to be done
- changed some locations to SS production, HU production, RO production and IT production (made things simpler)
- made Items for some that were missing them (such that i had added and IT Artillery for example)
- Gave all german armies a pioneer regiment
- changed rifles from 1942 versions to 1941 versions (scenario starts in october 1941)
- Changed Russian AI behaviour. It will be very defensive in 1941, a little defensive in 1942 and offensive in 1943, but if russian powerpoints is greater than german then it becomes a little more offensive. More defensive if hard weather.
- Also started implementing EATG reinforcements as i discovered i had only added Case Blue reinforcements (these will be optional) but only up to round 8/9
- Some other changes to production.
- Made some changes to weather event. Rail transfer is not affected so much. Also both sides will recieve negative offensive modifications in certain weather. But germany much more.

I have started a couple of games against the AI. The AI turn seems to take some time Starting another one now against a russian AI++. Will be fun to see what happens.