Ineffective PH attack?

[Historiker]

I've seen a lot of "PH strike broken?" threads where everyone claims that the strikes are too effective.
Well, in 15 test runs of my scenario 2 PBEM, I never sank a single BB in PH. I didn't change anything with the KB and use the latest public patch.

Whats the reason?



Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 68
B5N2 Kate x 144
D3A1 Val x 126



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 22 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed, 18 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 8 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 5 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 3 destroyed on ground
PBY-5 Catalina: 11 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground
C-33: 1 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 2 destroyed on ground
P-36A Mohawk: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AR Vestal, Torpedo hits 1
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 1
BB Nevada, Torpedo hits 4, heavy damage
CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 1
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
xAKL Manini, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
CL Helena, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CL Raleigh, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AV Curtiss, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Reid, Bomb hits 1, on fire


Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Repair Shipyard hits 4
Airbase hits 56
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 205
Port hits 21
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x A6M2 Zero attacking from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
17 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
15 x A6M2 Zero attacking from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
24 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
24 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
17 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
18 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
12 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
25 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet
25 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
3 x A6M2 Zero attacking from 100 feet
Airfield Attack: 1 plane(s) with no ordnance
Airfield Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val diving from 10000'
City Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 15000 feet

CAP engaged:
18th PG/6th PS with P-40B Warhawk (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
15th PG/47th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes

Training flight from 18th PG/6th PS has been caught up in attack
Training flight from 15th PG/47th PS has been caught up in attack

[Hanzberger]

Maybe it didn't show up yet due to FOW?

[vlcz]

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger

Maybe it didn't show up yet due to FOW?

As it is a test game you can allways inspect from the other side, I would be quite stunned if those 4 times torpedoed BBs are still afloat

It seems your pilots are quite modest for being airmen [8D]

[Xargun]

I would agree... its FOW. Login as the Allies and check your sunk ships and start counting the BBs. But to be honest, you are better off crippling them to massive levels then actually sinking most of them. It effectively takes them out of the game and tricks the allied player into spending years of repair time to fix them. Some BBs may not be repaired until late '43 or '44 even - by then its slowness is nothing but another torpedo magnet.

Xargun

[rockmedic109]

I've just run through about twenty first turns to get the one I want for my AI game.  I wanted 2 battleships sunk and the rest fairly heavily damaged.  I should've gone with the DEC 8 scenario but wanted to actually see the war from the start.  Most of the runs had more than two BBs sunk.  A couple had zero or one.  A couple had 2 sunk and two {or more} with >96% FLOT damage and fires that I felt would make them sink before they could get into drydock. 
 
I also had one that the power died in my laptop before I could save it {volume was down to not disturb my sleeping partner so I didn't hear the low battery beep}.  Of course it had exactly what I wanted in the attack.
 
Ten runs without one being sunk is either an extreme case of bad dice rolls {something I was famous for in Star Fleet Battles} or more likely FOW is making it so you are not seeing them sink. 
 
 
 
 

[Dr. Duh]

As allies I restarted after my first try yielded 6 BBs sunk on the first strike. I decided to go with my 2nd try when only two were sunk and the rest only moderately damaged - I thought, hmmm, this is going to work out just right. Yeah...

The next day came and KB was still hanging around and launched a second attack. Fortunately nothing major sank, but all the BBs racked up a lot of additional damage. Since he was only 3 hexes out, I decided to try a sortie with all my undamaged cruisers and DDs to see if I could catch him in a surface action. It worked, and although all 3 cruisers were seriously damaged and two DDs sunk, I managed to put a lot of shell hits on Soryu and one of his battleships. I figured that should chase him away... but nooOOOooo!

The next day a sub managed to torpedo Soryu, but he still hung around for another PH strike. Finally after 6 days he started a leisurely withdrawal up towards Midway, bombing airfields all the way. I managed another torpedo hit (I had about 10 subs dogging him), but Soryu just wouldn't sink - I kept getting a report and every day was seeing her in that day's tally of sunk ships, but it was always turning out to be just FOW.

I was gonna get mad if she managed to limp all the way home, but finally I saw a big jump in aircraft losses for the day (25+ zeroes, 15+ each Kates and Vals) attributed to "ground", so I guess that meant she sank and wasn't able to fly off any of her squadrons beforehand (would the AI even do that?) - or maybe her flight deck was too damaged or something.

So I ended up with like 30+ ships with major damage and not a single undamaged combatant in PH, but very few sank. The cost to KB was the Soryu and about 150 planes and pilots (I lost a lot more planes than that but who cares).

[Remenents]

Ya, I have noticed that KB likes to hang around more than 1 day unless you put together some sort of attack with subs and/or ships to chase it away. Out of 10 total restarts wih the game, probably about 8 times KB has hung around for more than 1 day unless I do something to chase it away. Not sure why this is, since "historically" she only struck out with 2 waves and in a 1 day time frame.

Most of the time when KB hits me, I lose at least 2 BBs. A few times I have lost 4 or 5 and another time not a single BB was sunk, but all took moderate to severe damage (which is actually worse if that happens).

I have yet to be able to sink any of the KB ships, even turning off historic first turns ect and making a bunch of TFs to go after where I know she will be, the best I have managed is a few shell hits and a torp or two from my subs. KB is pretty much invincible those first few turns.

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: Dr. Duh

As allies I restarted after my first try yielded 6 BBs sunk on the first strike. I decided to go with my 2nd try when only two were sunk and the rest only moderately damaged - I thought, hmmm, this is going to work out just right. Yeah...

The next day came and KB was still hanging around and launched a second attack. Fortunately nothing major sank, but all the BBs racked up a lot of additional damage. Since he was only 3 hexes out, I decided to try a sortie with all my undamaged cruisers and DDs to see if I could catch him in a surface action. It worked, and although all 3 cruisers were seriously damaged and two DDs sunk, I managed to put a lot of shell hits on Soryu and one of his battleships. I figured that should chase him away... but nooOOOooo!

The next day a sub managed to torpedo Soryu, but he still hung around for another PH strike. Finally after 6 days he started a leisurely withdrawal up towards Midway, bombing airfields all the way. I managed another torpedo hit (I had about 10 subs dogging him), but Soryu just wouldn't sink - I kept getting a report and every day was seeing her in that day's tally of sunk ships, but it was always turning out to be just FOW.

I was gonna get mad if she managed to limp all the way home, but finally I saw a big jump in aircraft losses for the day (25+ zeroes, 15+ each Kates and Vals) attributed to "ground", so I guess that meant she sank and wasn't able to fly off any of her squadrons beforehand (would the AI even do that?) - or maybe her flight deck was too damaged or something.

So I ended up with like 30+ ships with major damage and not a single undamaged combatant in PH, but very few sank. The cost to KB was the Soryu and about 150 planes and pilots (I lost a lot more planes than that but who cares).

I think you won that battle. 150 lost pilots for the IJN is devastating. A big start on the attrition war.

[Q-Ball]

In AE, pilot losses on the carriers are going to hurt ALOT more. JFBs have to be extremely careful not to attrite out pilots.

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

In AE, pilot losses on the carriers are going to hurt ALOT more. JFBs have to be extremely careful not to attrite out pilots.

Tell me about it![:(]

[Q-Ball]

It is so critical, that you will have to be VERY careful on your aircraft settings. Some rules of thumb I plan to use:

1. No Airbase Attacks whatsoever, unless critical to success of an invasion. But you should NEVER use your CV to attack land targets if you can help it

2. No Nav Attacks on ships with LBA Cap over them, unless it's an important target. As the Allies, I would welcome a KB strike against 4 unloading xAKLs at Port Moresby, for example, if I had 50 P-40s on CAP.

Pretty much I want to save it for hitting ships that don't have CAP, or for USN CVs.

Same holds for IJN LBA; you have to be very careful not to have your Nells/Bettys fly after low-priority targets and get chewed up by CAP.

[Dr. Duh]

"Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war"

Not a good idea in this war as JPN because it's so hard to get them back on a leash when there's still plenty of good pillaging to be had...

[JWE]

I am really curious why folks who have PH issues don't try the Dec. 8 scenario 006. Is there something in the scenario that just don't float your boat? What can be done (realistically) to make this scenario work for you?

[Historiker]

Hmm...
I perhaps should go to the Tech support section. I have a question and wasn't interested in starting a discussion...


And guys: I'm not stupid... In a testrun, I can see both sides...

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: JWE

I am really curious why folks who have PH issues don't try the Dec. 8 scenario 006. Is there something in the scenario that just don't float your boat? What can be done (realistically) to make this scenario work for you?

I have a PBEM scenario 2 - and I want freedom of choice. I have no problem with an iffective strike against PH as I accept a variety in the results - that's fine to me.
But isn't it allowed to wonder why the PH-Strike seems to be totally uselss in my PBEM-testruns? When my opponent sends the Force Z south I won't get a single BB.

Is asking for the reason a problem?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Hmm...
I perhaps should go to the Tech support section. I have a question and wasn't interested in starting a discussion...

I wrote the Dec. 8 scenario. If your question is about that, a pm will be a lot better then the tech forum. [:)]

[Historiker]

Is it really that difficult to understand that I'm wondering why the KB strike against PH doesn't sink a single ship in more than a dozend tests?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
Is asking for the reason a problem?

Absolutely not.

I have a PBEM scenario 2 - and I want freedom of choice. I have no problem with an iffective strike against PH as I accept a variety in the results - that's fine to me.
But isn't it allowed to wonder why the PH-Strike seems to be totally uselss in my PBEM-testruns? When my opponent sends the Force Z south I won't get a single BB.

Well, many people have seen just the opposite results and are screaming about over-effective PH strikes. And just about everybody is complaining about Force Z always getting whacked. So, I guess everybody wonders why ...

You can fix this and get all the freedom of choice you want, by using the Dec. 8 scenario 006, and setting the "Non-Historical" switch. That way, you get a reasonable facsimile of PH and PI damage (in planes and ships), and the game starts up with the Allied side, so you can give whatever orders you want to Force Z. I'm having a real hard time understanding the difficulty on this one. We have been smiling and dialing, testing and playing, and have not encountered any of these difficulties. Is there something we're missing?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: JWE

I am really curious why folks who have PH issues don't try the Dec. 8 scenario 006. Is there something in the scenario that just don't float your boat? What can be done (realistically) to make this scenario work for you?

I think it has a lot to do with people just preferring to start at the beginning. It's one of the reasons I kept argueing to "tighten up" the potential range of results in the PH strike. People expect an "historical start" to come out resembling history (give or take a bit)..., and this one has results that jump all over the place.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: JWE

I am really curious why folks who have PH issues don't try the Dec. 8 scenario 006. Is there something in the scenario that just don't float your boat? What can be done (realistically) to make this scenario work for you?