Re-examine the stacking rules

[osiris_slith]

HI

It might be time to re-examine the stacking rule

Based on this info collected from various sources this means the stacking rules in Campaign series are flawed. There is some serious overstacking going on

Offense
Tank PLATOON: Frontage 250m (1 hex) Depth of 600m (2-3 hexes) (W Schneider)
Tank COMPANY: Frontage 400-500m (2 hexes) Depth 400-500m (2hexes) (W Schneider)
Tank Regiment: Frontage 1600m-Depth: 3000m (Handbook on German Military forces-May, 1945)

Infantry PLATOON: 150-200M (1 hex) (US War Department-1995)
Infantry COMPANY: 500M-800m (2-3 hexes) (US War Department-1995)
Infantry BATTALION: 500m-1000m (2-4 hexes) (US War department 1995, Bull-2005)

Defense
Tank Platoon: frontage: 200m (1 hex)-depth 500m (2hexes) (W Schneider)
Tank Company: frontage: 1000-1500m (4-6hexes) depth 500m (2 hexes) (W Schneider)
Tank Battalion: frontage: 5000m (20 hexes) depth: 3000m (12 hexes) (W Schneider)

Infantry PLATOON: 200M-500m (1-2 hex) (US War Department-1995)
Infantry COMPANY: 500M-1000m (2-3 hexes) (US War Department-1995)
Infantry BATTALION: 800m-2000m (3-8 hexes) (Rottman-2004)

US march rules are a mimimum of 50m between individual tanks, trucks.

I would assume the Soviets and Allies learned alot from the Germans and would have probably adopted similar techniques.

Maybe its time to revisit the stacking rules????

For more information please see: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-4.html

rene

[Jason Petho]

Not sure what you're on about.. based on the numbers you show above, the fact that unit sizes in the game are platoons and hex sizes is 250 metres fits quite nicely.

Jason Petho

[osiris_slith]

Hi Jason

Than why can we have 4 german tank platoons in 1 hex..based on the info thats 300% more than what ther germans would have in an area of that size

Rene

[osiris_slith]

Hi Jason

Sorry maybe I was not clear and made a mistake..The game scale is correct 1 platoon per hex..but not 4 platoons per hex

Rene

[osiris_slith]

Hi Jason

Based on the info provided..the max number of platoons per hex should be 2

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: osiris

Hi Jason

Based on the info provided..the max number of platoons per hex should be 2

Doesn't that boil to the tactics used by the player?

Most good players tend to limit the amount of units per hex to a couple platoons.

When overcrowding a hex, the player is penalized.

Jason Petho

[osiris_slith]

Hi Jason
 
I agree it does depend on tactics however the ability to stack hexes with an unrealistic number of platoons..say 6 t-34 platoons creates..4 platoons of 17 tigers in a 250m/250m hex is not realistic and creates impossible situations on the ground.
 
Less stacking means more mobility, better use of combined arms tactics..so players will adapt and create new tactics...would that not be the better direction to go??
 
If players are penalized for over stacking..why not just make overstacking impossible and toss the penalty?? 
 
Rene
 
 

[baltjes]

Jason, you are right with respect to the 'normal' stacking rules, what wanders me, however, are the 'loading' rules. Until version 1.03 a 6-strength platoon needed a 6-strength truck to be loaded. From version 1.04 on, this was 'corrected' by the introduction of 3-strength trucks for doing that task. Wasn't it posible to have two 6 strength platoons be loaded on one 6 strength truck? This reduces the number of necessary 'truck-counters' considerably; it halves them! (I am an former bord-gamer used to think in counters; I always use 2D-mode!). This is of importance in large scenario's not only for reduction of the number of units in the OOB, but above all because AI tends to move (empty) trucks/transport endlesly one or a few hexes until all their actionpoints are exhausted!
 
Another point with respect to stacking/loading is that one trooptrain can transport only one platoon (In fact, it isn't an other point; its just the same as with the trucks in past, only even more ununderstandable!) A train should be able to transport at least a whole company (IMHO), thus four platoons. For a battalion, four trains are needed (three for the companies plus one for extra stuff like HQ, commander and some extra unit(s). (The commander needs now a whole train for himself alone! (I know that officers had their privileges, but this goes too far I think). The maximum stacking of trains is two per hex, so a battalion transported by train needs two hexes = 500 meters, which sound reasonable to me.
 
It is absolutely not my intention to force you to solve this 'problem' a la minute. I just encountered it when designing large(er) scenario's and I can live with it. Just for the case that an adjustment is technical possible and when you are in the position......then, please!
 
Hajo Baltjes

[osiris_slith]

Hi
 
I dont have a particular issue with a 3 truck loading a 6 strenght platoon because that is realistic. A german panzer grenadier company had 5 SPWS not 6 per platoon. What is not realistic is having 6 truck platoons in a 250/250m box. I dont want stacking to be eliminated, it should be limited so as to keep the game playable and somewhat realistic..why 4 platoons or more per hex.
 
Why not just cap it at 2 platoons? 
if the stacking stays as is than why not make the penalty much more severe??
 
just an idea
 
Rene

[baltjes]

Hi Rene,

Why not the players let find out themdelves what are the pro's and con's of stacking? In combat situations it preferable to have the units spread, in transport situations the contrary might be better (supply, command). 17 Tiger tanks on 250x250 meters is not 'normal', but was the Falaise pocket 'normal'? A full infantry company (four platoons) in a city area of this size does not sound unrealistic to me.

I can fully live with present stacking rules, although have some remarks with the loading rules. I have forwarded them to Jason.


Hajo Baltjes

[osiris_slith]

HI Baltjes/jason

I dont think its technically feasible for a leader to load with a 6 platoon on to a single 6 truck.

Why not have the infantry unit essentially have the ability to load/not transport/absorbs a leader unit. So I load the leader on to the infantry unit and than load the infantry unit with the loaded leader on to a train...that would work however the defense/offense factors of the loaded infantry unit would be enhanced once it loads a leader

Rene

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

ORIGINAL: osiris

Hi Jason

Based on the info provided..the max number of platoons per hex should be 2

Doesn't that boil to the tactics used by the player?

Most good players tend to limit the amount of units per hex to a couple platoons.

When overcrowding a hex, the player is penalized.

Jason Petho

From the hyperwar text:

Infantry defense:
The width and depth of a German defense area depend upon the terrain and the proportional strength of friendly and hostile forces. In general, however, the width of a defensive sector assigned to a unit is approximately twice the width of the sector when the same unit attacks. Normal sectors are: platoon, 220 to 550 yards; company, 440 to 1,100 yards; battalion, 880 to 2,200 yards; regiment, 2,200 to 3,300 yards; division, 6,600 to 11,000 yards.
IV-21

b. SECTORS OF ATTACK. The width of a sector assigned to an infantry unit in the attack depends on the unit's mission and battle strength, on terrain conditions, on the available fire support of all arms, and on the probable strength of enemy resistance. Normally the sector assigned to a platoon is between 165 and 220 yards. A company attack sector is about 330 to 550 yards. A battalion sector is 440 to 1,100 yards, while a division sector may be 4,400 to 5,500 yards. These sectors also provide the boundaries for the other arms, especially for the artillery in support of the infantry, although the artillery may utilize favorable observation positions in neighboring sectors. This also applies to the heavy infantry weapons.
IV-7

I think Jason nailed it on the head. The platoon level fits nicely and the penalties for overstacking should be enough?
The game is fought in both offense and defense. I'm not sure the changes that are proposed are enough to warrant all the work to do it, along with the effects on existing scenarios, etc.

RR

[baltjes]

Hi Rene,

Our messages crossed...

I fully agree that a 3 strength trucks should cary a full platoon (6 strength) (about 12 men per truck). That is the same as having a 6 strength truck carrying two full platoons. That is a reduction of 25% in 'units' in the OOB. Quite a difference to handle, both by human as well as AI. Especially in huge scenario's I love to play. That was my point.

Hajo Baltjes

[osiris_slith]

HI RR
 
What are the current penalties for stacking...dont seem to be in the book.??..I checked under combat results and movement..
 
Rene

[osiris_slith]

I found penalites for movement and line of sight..not for combat

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: osiris

I found penalites for movement and line of sight..not for combat

The COMBAT EXPLANATION (Section 5.21) explains it.

Jason Petho

[osiris_slith]

Hi Jason
 
Rule 5.21 this is whats in the book
Combat results:
No effect
Retreat
Disrupted
Reduction of SP points
Elimination
Morale Loss
Morale Recovery is also under 5.21
 
I also checked Terrain modifiiers its not there and I checked fortifications.
 
None of the sectios explain combat effect modifiers on stacking???
 
Am I missing something??? If its such an important rule than it should be crystal clear..no??
 
Rene

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: osiris

Am I missing something??? If its such an important rule than it should be crystal clear..no??

Rene

It is pretty crystal clear, Rene.

Section 5.21

Page 67 of the MCS-Manual103.pdf found in your Manuals folder

Paragraph starting with...

"Direct Fire Target Density Value - ..."

I can't emphasis enough that everyone should read the manual from cover to cover at least once.

Jason Petho

[osiris_slith]

Hi Jason
 
Its in section 5.20: The density bonus is increased by 8% and rounded up if the SP stacking value exceeds 12..
 
Maybe 8% is enough but there should be a corressponding penalty to the defense..a penalty of 8-10% for stacking of greater than 12 SP
 
Rene

[osiris_slith]

Hi Jason
 
I may have an older manual..mines on page 50..sorry for the mix up
 
Rene