AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

[peskpesk]

Route 9i: France Atlantic and Mediterranean

[peskpesk]

Route 9ii: France Atlantic and Mediterranean

[peskpesk]

Route 9iii: France Atlantic and Mediterranean

[peskpesk]

Route 9iiii: France Atlantic and Mediterranean

[peskpesk]

Route 10i: France Atlantic and Mediterranean.

[peskpesk]

Route 10ii: France Atlantic and Mediterranean.

[peskpesk]

Route 10iii: France Atlantic and Mediterranean.

[peskpesk]

Route 10iiii: France Atlantic and Mediterranean.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

As I promised Steve to go through all the forums post of all AI for MWiF – XXX, here is the result for Commonwealth. Some good suggestions from forum members. I have now compiled it to define 4 possible starting major convoy routes for the British and 6 major convoy routes cooperating with the France, from which the AIO will chose from. But combined the routs are quite many. so I hope we can eliminate some of them.

Daunting task.

A couple of remarks :

The Australia to Canada route can be shifted to the east. It cost 1 extra CP (6 instead of 5) but the route is also 1 sea area further from Truk and the Japan area so that losses will be lower. In the end, the CW will spare convoys by wasting 1 here to have the route more eastward.

Some parts of the convoy routes should be seen as independent "modules" : For example the NEI oil. Will it be saved in India, in Australia, in both ? It costs 4 CP (Tankers if playing with Tankers), but the way you put them at sea define where they are saved.
For example the South America resources. Do they go to England through the eastern way (Cape Verde / Cape St Vincent) or through the western way (East Coast). Both ways are 4 CP long per resource, and the western way can be 1 CP more than the eastern way for one of these resources, but the way from the USA to England is usually safer than the one from the Cape Verde Basin to Cape St Vincent.
Within the whole convoy route plan, I think that those modules should be decided independently, so that the CW don't always save its oil to India.

Also, having no convoy in the Med when playing with LOS (Limited Oversea Supply, that requires to have CP at sea to trace a supply path) is a bad idea. You may have designed the convoys routes without optional rules in mind, but LOS is often selected, and it is crutial to the CW, so IMO CW routes should be designed with LOS in mind.

Splitting the convoy routes between the Bay of Biscay at setup is a tactical mistake IMO, that the CW should never make. Splitting the route here means that there are 2 critical / important Sea Areas instead of 1 to protect, thus depletting your escort assets faster and providing the Axis with more searchinb & finding occasions. Moreover, the Faeroes Gap is the only Sea area that is garanteed to be in range from German SUBs in 39 and in 1940. Providing them with a place to hunt is a bad idea. The Faeroes Gap stays the sea area that is the closest from Kiel, so I would make my convoy go throught there only if the Bay of Biscay was hopelessly lost.


A last comment, about the use of French CP as first losses in the CW convoy lines. I may already have said this, but I do it again, I consider this as a wrong idea. The percieved advantage of this tactic, is that it spares CW CP. This is a wrong perception, as, talking to you from my experience in playing the game, the CW CP only really beggin to be threatened and butchered when France falls. So the only advantage of this tactic is useless finaly.

The downsides of that idea are :
- The necessity for the CW, when France is about to fall, to fill in the holes with CW CP anyway. So this needs the CW to have prepared in advance the right amount of CP, dispersed all along the convoy route, and take a naval to sail them all. Taking a naval is not the problem, the CW takes one per turn at minimum anyway, the problem is spreading the convoys, and not knowing in advance for real when Vichy will happen.
- When France falls, a lot of these French CP will fall in Free French hands. This means a greater flexibility later in 1941 / 1942 for the CW to fill in holes in his convoy lines, using Free French naval moves instead of CW naval moves, freeing the CW to do things he really wants to do, not only things the Axis forces him to do. So having French any CP destroyed in the place of CW CPs is a wrong idea from this sole point of view.
- Later again, when Vichy is collapsed, all French CP will become allied again, even those controlled by Vichy France previously, adding a larger amount of flexibility for the allied side in managing its convoys. These French convoys may even come handy in the Pacific, helping the USA choosing a Land action and still re-opening a supply route the Japanese just have cut.
- As soon as Free France come into existence, you will want to provide it with BPs, and you'll then need to ship those BPs to the new Fre French home country, which risks to be 2-3 sea areas away from the lender. Having Free French CPs for that job releaves the CW from doing the job, and allows the Free French to have lent BP sooner than if there were no Free French CP. And the sooner Free France have BP, the sooner it builts units, and the sooner it built units, the sooner it can be active within the allied play. Free French activity limits can be of a really good help in all the game, both in Europe and in the Pacific. Having that asset earlier is good for the allies.

French CPs are wildcards in the Allied play in the convoy / supply world of WiF (due to the added activities limits that Free French units provide), and having them take losses instead of the CW is a very wrong idea. They are so few initialy, and they will loose some even if not on CW convoy routes. I would call that a wrong good idea. It looks like a good idea, but it is nowhere one.

It will take you a couple of games to see that in actual games, but I can tell it to you already after a dozen complete games finished. It would be a pity if the computer game consistently used this strategy over and over, never realizing it is not good.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Peter, excellent work![&o][&o][&o]
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I like Patrice's analysis and I can not argue with his conclusions.
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Here are my comments on how to structure this to reduce the coding for the AIO script.

1 - At its most fundamental level the task here is to take each resource point, 1 at a time, and decide what happens to it. Some oil points may be saved, and some resources may be left unused because of the difficulties in setting up convoy lines. Most resource points will be shipped to factories.

2 - Each resource point should be assigned: (1) to be saved, (2) to be left unused, or (3) to a specific factory. Let's call all 3 of these the resource point's 'destination'.

3 - There may be alternative pipelines for each resource point --> factory link.

4 - By defining (and labelling) the links, the task then becomes one of: (a) picking a destination for each resource point and (b) for resource points going to a factory, a 'link' has to be chosen.

6 - By removing the use of French convoys by the CW, this problem is vastly simplified.

7 - Many of the resources will have no alternative links. If X is the best use of a resource, then don't try to 'force' an alternative. I want the AIO to make the "clearly best" decisions all the time, and only add randomness when the alternative has a possible benefit.

So, I see the majority of resource points being assigned a 'destination' and a single, standard link. Then there are the resources which might be used/shipped differently. The latter group will have branching logic associated with them, some due to the use of optional rules, and some so the AIO is an 'unpredictable' opponent.

Only after all the individual decisions are made do the lovely screenshots you have made appear. They are the result of multiple small decisions, not the starting point in the decision making process.

[morgil]

How about you assign each resource point a value, based upon the following values;
1) How much production it generates - One from Aus, SA, & Ind, generates extra PP
2) How many convoys is needed to bring it to a usable factory.
3) Does the oil need to be shipped, and where would you want it.

You can then assign a priority to what convs have to be protected the most/ should give priority to arrive/ patch holes in the chain, if you dont have a surplus of convs in the spessiffic area. So in the start, you would give a high priority to Food in Flames, but as Japan enters the war and youre multiplier increases, you wanna reduce the value of those long chains. And as LL from US increases you wanna increase the importance of the shorter chain.

And a point about the Cyprus resource, if France sets up its Convs for the two sea areas in the Med, you can easily give it to France after the first turn.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: morgil

How about you assign each resource point a value, based upon the following values;
1) How much production it generates - One from Aus, SA, & Ind, generates extra PP
2) How many convoys is needed to bring it to a usable factory.
3) Does the oil need to be shipped, and where would you want it.

You can then assign a priority to what convs have to be protected the most/ should give priority to arrive/ patch holes in the chain, if you dont have a surplus of convs in the spessiffic area. So in the start, you would give a high priority to Food in Flames, but as Japan enters the war and youre multiplier increases, you wanna reduce the value of those long chains. And as LL from US increases you wanna increase the importance of the shorter chain.

And a point about the Cyprus resource, if France sets up its Convs for the two sea areas in the Med, you can easily give it to France after the first turn.

Good ideas but the problem Peter is working on here is exclusively setting up the convoys at the start of the war.

At that time the player/AIO has only partial information about where the Axis major powers have/will set up their units. However, what information will be available is known, so writing the script for the placement of the convoys isn't based on absolutely no information about enemy dispositions.

I have limited this problem to just setting up the naval units, which is just the convoys at sea since CW is neutral at the start of the war. How to adjust the convoys after the game is underway, is another whole problem with many new factors.

[composer99]

I would disagree that every CW convoy set up must be made to accommodate LoS. As peskpesk noted, that is an optional rule the AIO will take into account when setting up convoys. If LoS is being played with the AIO will of necessity include convoy chains to keep supply open in the Med.

[brian brian]

There are too many possibilities there to pick a favorite, but I did notice a few things:

There is usually little point to a CP in the North Sea. The Gort HQ can trace rail supply back to an Atlantic French port. One exception might be if you want to land in Rotterdam while Belgium is neutral. This is fairly rare and an overrated Allied play anyway, and one time it is likely is in Mar/Apr 40, the turn the CW gets a CP reinforcement. A CP in the North Sea makes it easier for the Luftwaffe to find the BEF's transports...and in a pinch (like if Gort's rail line is cut), a CW TRS with good BB escorts in a high box can possibly deliver supplies more safely than a CP in the 0 box.

Sending a lot through the Med is an invitation to lose a lot to an Italian DoW. This can have it's advantages though....maybe you _want_ an Italian DOW. Or maybe you will be sending in the Ark Royal group to strike La Spezia on the first turn. So the Med route should be subsidiary to grand strategy decisions vis-a-vis Italy, rather than randomly pick a convoy route and hope it works out well with the other decisions. But in general I wouldn't use more than one French CP in the East & West med.

Yes, I said French CP. I use them as losses. It's true they are handy later in the game and if you want that use some for the Australia<>Canada route. Even there it is hard to guarantee they go Free French due to the Polynesian bases, as it is most everywhere on the map really. Not many are lost before France falls usually (unless you try the Med route), and in the middle of the game there are large quantities of US CPs available for whatever you need. I think the western Allies need to run their convoys on the premise that the Germans won't be giving you ten free ones from the Netherlands until the Japanese DoW in late 41/early 42. If that happens every CW CP is precious, and any French one lost before they become Vichy CPs is one more the CW has to ship stuff to Russia, and that is THE major priority in 1941. And every CP that turns Vichy is effectively a CW loss for two years or more. Maybe I am in a minority, but I think that is the best German play; leaving the Netherlands neutral as long as possible stretches the Allied economies the tightest, and that is what the game is all about. If you want a lot of Free French CPs in the middle game, align a late-active Netherlands to the Free French and you have a nice, basically free action limit mini-navy. Putting the French CP on the front line in Cape St Vincent and using them to take losses is gamey as heck. But the point is to try to win the game. No matter how you deploy the French, the majority will end up Vichy anyway and you will get the survivors back at some point.

Also the priority in 39-40 is to maximize resources delivered to France, including the Indo-China resource, and it is possible to deliver that to France and fill the UK factories. I'm not sure that the above CW & French routes combined accomplish that? (And the ships keeping Malta in supply from each direction can deliver the Cyprus resource to France). Which reminds me, it is much better to pick from a combination than to have each major power randomly pick a separate route.

One solution to the NEI oil is to only use 2 CP to deliver it to Singapore and then use that for re-org each turn until more CP are available when a lazy Axis hand you the Dutch ones, while saving oil elsewhere in the world, such as right in the Port-of-Spain hex for four turns.

[Froonp]

Ah, also, about the Australian resources.
It costs 9 sea areas to ship them to Britain through the Indian Ocean, and it costs 10 to ship them to Britain through Panama. But the route through Panama is safer from Japanses threats.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Ah, also, about the Australian resources.
It costs 9 sea areas to ship them to Britain through the Indian Ocean, and it costs 10 to ship them to Britain through Panama. But the route through Panama is safer from Japanses threats.

Ship them to Canada for 5 sea areas and the Canadian ones to the UK for 3 sea areas. 16 convoys instead of 18 or 20.

(I much prefer Alberta beef to what comes from New Zealand but this is war! [:)] )

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Ah, also, about the Australian resources.
It costs 9 sea areas to ship them to Britain through the Indian Ocean, and it costs 10 to ship them to Britain through Panama. But the route through Panama is safer from Japanses threats.

Ship them to Canada for 5 sea areas and the Canadian ones to the UK for 3 sea areas. 16 convoys instead of 18 or 20.

(I much prefer Alberta beef to what comes from New Zealand but this is war! [:)] )

With Food In Flames you need to transport the Australian resource to Great Britain if you want the production bonus.

[Extraneous]

Setting up the convoy lines is one thing but…
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Using the Naval Threat Assessment ~ The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 how should the AI protect these convoy lines?

[composer99]

Check out earlier in this thread, there is some discussion on convoy line defences; mostly on page 5.

[Extraneous]

The information on page 5 is from 2007 and is out of date.
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Example: Froonp says ship CW oil from Venezuela to the USA and then rail it to Canada.
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This requires permission from the Neutral major power the USA.
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Steve has said permissions are not allowed in MWiF.
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ORIGNINAL: Froonp
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Venezuela (3 OIL) to Canada (Oil saved to Canada) Carribean --> USA --> Canada = 3 TK
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The maps showing the convoy lines are nice but there is no indication “from where what is being shipped” or “where it is being shipped to”.
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There is no mention of any Tankers that would be on the maps.
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There is no mention of where the main fleet, the reserve fleet, or the escorts would be located.
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There is no mention of the composition of the main fleet, the reserve fleet, or the escorts.
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