What does "docked in port" mean?

[rattovolante]

Foreword:
In my PBeM game I had a few TFs docked in Takao, loading troops (it's still Dec. 10, invasion of the PI is underway). The British DDs from Hong Kong raided the port, avoiding my picket ship TFs and engaged a 2-ship transport TF docked in port, loading troops.

I had left the TF with no escort, thinking it was safe while docked in port, so they easily sunk both ships.

Now, I actually am not overly disappointed by the result, as the losses were quite light, and I lost only 2 ships (I had larger and more valuable unescorted TFs docked in the same port). It is maybe the ideal learning lesson: unexpected result, damaging enough to remember but not serious enough to have a major impact on my plans. In other words I'm not complaining, and I want to keep this result even if this turns out to be some sort of bug (I don't think so, I rather think I misunderstood what "docked" represents).

This is not part of my AAR, so it's open to Hartwig (my opponent) too, if he want to take a look (actually I invited him to do so)

Now, here is the TF status last turn.
As you can see it was a newly-created TF which was just given the order to start loading troops. The DDs attacked during the night, so I guess they were not fully loaded when they sunk.

[Mike Scholl]

The Emden pulled off pretty much the same stunt during the First World War, so it is certainly possible. If it starts happening regularly, I'd complain..., but once in a while just adds to the excitement.

[rattovolante]

This is the combat log:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Takao at 84,65, Range 3,000 Yards
 
Japanese Ships
      xAK Tohuku Maru, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
      xAK Hokumai Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
 
Allied Ships
      DD Scout
      DD Thanet
      DD Thracian
 
Japanese ground losses:
      382 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
         Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 82 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
 
 
 
Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends loading operations and begins to get underway
Reduced sighting due to 67% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 67% moonlight: 7,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 3,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 3,000 yards
DD Thracian launches Torpedoes at xAK Tohuku Maru at 3,000 yards
DD Thanet launches Torpedoes at xAK Tohuku Maru at 3,000 yards
xAK Tohuku Maru sunk by DD Scout at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
xAK Hokumai Maru sunk by DD Thanet at 3,000 yards
xAK Hokumai Maru sunk by DD Thanet at 3,000 yards
Combat ends with last Japanese ship sunk...

Takao harbor appears to be protected by a coastal defense unit (Kaosing Fort) and a minefield.

[rattovolante]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The Emden pulled off pretty much the same stunt during the First World War, so it is certainly possible. If it starts happening regularly, I'd complain..., but once in a while just adds to the excitement.

Yes my first thought went to the Emden as well. But my whole point is that the description of the engagement from the reports and combat animations is very different from the Emden case (see below).

BTW, I'm not complaining for the result, really, if the DDs hit my other TF it would have been a complete disaster for me I just have doubts if this event was WAD (or, seeing it from another angle: can I replicate it at, say, Pearl Harbor?)

Now, the relevant part:

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends loading operations and begins to get underway

Also check the manual, section 6.2.15:

Docked TF’s do not use Endurance, but they will automatically respond to enemy naval forces (both reaction moves and to engage an enemy fleet in the same hex), in which case they will no longer be docked.

So it seems that the British DDs didn't actually penetrate the harbor like the Emden did.
As far as I understand my transports reacted to the enemy presence by undocking, leaving port and attempting to flee (or to engage?!?) with troops onboard!!
So the engagement happened at sea, not in dock - Emden case does not seem to be relevant.
Is this WAD? Wouldn't a more reasonable "reaction to enemy naval forces" for a transport TF be something like "stay docked, disembark the troops/abandon ship and raise a warning to coastal defense"?
I believe my TF's behavior would have been entirely appropriate for a SCTF, or a transport TF on say, Nauru, a 2(0) port which historically consisted in just a floating dock with no defenses altoghether. But here they were (supposedly) safe in a port 4(4) with coastal defense and minefield.... why abandon the safety of port and leave like this with no escort?


Misc notes:
I obviously made a mistake in not placing a patrol PC/PB TF in the Takao hex (I actually have a few, but they are patrolling the area using the patrol system, I guess the DDs avoided detection and I'm fine with that).

[modrow]

Well, as I was invited and requested to join, I will say what I think about this:

To me, the word "docked" means that the watercraft is fixed to a pier or quay inside the port. This allows dockworkers (?) to load/unload and/or to use port facilities to load/unload. As there are only a limited number of piers or quays available in a port, it makes a lot of sens to introduce the docking limit, as it has been done in AE. Great improvement !

So what happens in reality terms is the sneaky DDs move into the port and decide to attack moored (sp?) vessels. In general, why not - though I think there should be a larger probability that an undocked ship/TF present at the harbor is attacked.

I agree that there should be some likelihood that the local harbor patrol (unless it is docked [;)]) detects and potentially engages the intruders.

The minefields... well, let me just say that they DID take a toll from my view of events in the .001 file.

In reality, a coastal battery guarding a "must pass" passage into the harbor should also have a chance of detecting the ships and opening fire (I think it does for some of the hexes), but I don't know whether the port in question is accessible that way. Otherwise, it's always the question whether the required personnel is available in the barracks to respond to an alert or snoring under a table in a sake bar when a surprise attack occurs.

In game terms, first of all I should say that this was not a bombardment run, but I went in with a surface TF in retirement allowed setting.

I think that only disbanded ships are only subject to port/bombardment attacks whereas docked ships are subject to both naval attack and surface combat. I also think I remember that docking at least used to affect the efficiency of sub attacks in WitP, reflecting limited capability to maneuver inside the enemy port for the sub (not sure about AE here), not sure about any influence in any other way.

Just my 2cts...

Hartwig

[modrow]

ORIGINAL: rattovolante

BTW, I'm not complaining for the result, really, if the DDs hit my other TF it would have been a complete disaster for me I just have doubts if this event was WAD (or, seeing it from another angle: can I replicate it at, say, Pearl Harbor?)

Now, the relevant part:

I think if there are docked TFs at Pearl and if the Pearl hex is not causing a shore battery to open fire (as e.g. the Bataan hex or the Singapore hex do), you can try to replicate it, (unless you are scared of PT boats). If you want to hit the ships that are not organized in a TF, you'll need to go for a port attack.

Docked TF’s do not use Endurance, but they will automatically respond to enemy naval forces (both reaction moves and to engage an enemy fleet in the same hex), in which case they will no longer be docked.

So it seems that the British DDs didn't actually penetrate the harbor like the Emden did.

Not sure. The mine hit I received may also indicate that it may have done just that. For me, the difference between docked and undocked TFs is mainly that one is fixed to a pier or quay and the other is anchored somewhere in the port or in the vicinity of the port. I think your TF did not leave the port, but tried to get moving in order not to be a sitting duck, which appears reasonable to me. You slip the lines and try to get moving.

But again, that's just my 2cts. No idea what really was intended by the designers.

Hartwig

[rattovolante]

Hi Hartwig

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

I agree that there should be some likelihood that the local harbor patrol (unless it is docked [;)]) detects and potentially engages the intruders.

I didn't have any in the harbor itself in any case - that was a mistake. I just had a few second rate ships like CMs, but they were disbanded so they won't react.
The ships assigned to escort the TF you sunk were in another TF set on patrolling 2-3 hexes away from Takao, trying to intercept your DDs before they entered the harbor.

Well, bottom line is I thought surface combat task forces couldn't engage docked ships and that you had to use either SSx or air units (port strike), this obviously appears not to be the case!

The minefields... well, let me just say that they DID take a toll from my view of events in the .001 file.

Yes, I thought so, as 1 of them had misteriously disappeared when your TF was engaged by planes

I didn't mention this because I don't think it's relevant to my main doubt... which more or less is: "what did happen here"?
1- my TF reacted to your DDs by leaving port
2- or did your DDs penetrate the harbor?

I have no problems with case #2 (it is possible, see Emden), but if it's case #1... well, CPT Hidai doesn't appear to have taken a very smart decision...