ALLIED ONLY: aztez (A) vs erstad (J) ...2nd ROUND

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Also watch out for squads that were equiped with Nates and upgraded to Oscars, those with high exp and given good leaders can eat allies at any altitude. Dont think allies have any plane type to counter Oscars manouv.

Przemek's armored Hurricane flying tanks having been eating my Oscars for lunch. I've decided the Oscars are no match for planes with armor.

[Swenslim]

The problem with China is that I actually think Japan could gain much more succes in real life if used Manchuko forces, just look on this  tank division near Soviet border...

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

The problem with China is that I actually think Japan could gain much more succes in real life if used Manchuko forces, just look on this  tank division near Soviet border...

They eventually used some Kwantung Army forces in Ichi-Go (in 1944).

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: aztez

To summarize china. I think it is easy to capture the whole country. I grade Dave as an A+ japanese player. He is always modest but I think he is even better than Nemo and he really was tough nut to crack. (Too bad haven't seen him around AE forums)

Aztec, sad to say but your China strategy seems to be too much based on WITP.

As far as I can tell (from this AAR) you should asap try to attack (block) the Japanese rearward supply lanes with small Chinese forces. Your opponent will eventually defeat these forces, but they will slow him down. Building big Chinese stacks that contain several combat ineffective formations (there are some Chinese Corps that are very weak) does only lead to higher losses in the AE. Use these corps as guerilla/harrassment forces.

In addition, part of his Problem is (I believe) his opponent has brought in some elements from the Kwantung Army....They will always serve to upset the apple cart.[;)]

Not sure if this is the problem here. His opponent seems to use only two (very heavy) artillery battalions (5th + 8th) in China [frontline, could be that he uses other Kwantung forces as garrisons in Northern China]. The problem in this game (for aztec) seems (according to the AAR and the maps included) to be that his opponent attacks (basically) everywhere in Northern China and aztec has yet to develop a strategy to counter this.

[aztez]

Hi guys! Currently at work. Just decieded to post few comments.

seydlitz: Absolutely no need to apoligize or anything.

I think those pics are fantastic and speak volumes to everyone.

I was actually wondering the most likely zones japanese player would take when routing its convoys.

Basically you read my mind and answered this question with excellent details.

I will start implementing these into reality once the subs head to port for refuel. Currently they are mostly at sea but I will route
the ones near Luzon into new patrol zones near Home Islands.

I'am personally not familiar with pacific submarine warfare but in overall terms this is very intresting aspect of the
game.

I have been watching mostly documentaries on the Germany campaings in the Atlantic. Fascinating stuff!

Ok. That is very good details on submarine class. As said very educational.

I will read these once more when I get home. Thank you.

Keregeulen: Appreciate the comments! I must say that I disagree respectfully. I would never have done such approach in the old witp.
I have actually tried the guerilla warfare you are refering to and Dave simply has squashed those units. So, the rear are supply harashment was executed but japanese have cleared these forces.

The problems:

1) Armoured untis, artillrety with added shock assaults are too effective. It might not come imminent vs AI but againts good japanese player nothing I could do.

2) Supply situation. This effects in several ways. Chinese start with level 0 forts. As you know forts build up slowly with AE. It also seems that below lvl 6 forts are useless againts the combination of armour + artillery + shock assaults. To even build up some sort of an defense you need supplies and these are something you don't have.

3) If you look at the casualty reports chinese units seem to get killed while japanese seem just disabled. I think I have shown this in numerous of fights.

4) If japanese player moves bunch of extra squadrons into china you are pretty much unable to gain anything. The allied production has been downgraded quite a lot.

The fixes:

1) Raise the minium requirements of Manchuko garrison and make some of those aircraft squadrons hard coded. This has several good implifications.

2) Upgrade the chinese cities forts between 3-6 lvl.

3) Upgrade the garrison requirements for captured cities. After all this is waste hostile country with millions of people living in it.

4) Make the chinese supply "off map" based so the production simply doesn't halt when your opponents seizes northern part of the country.
With combination of these changes I personally think the whole theatre becomes much more balanced.

Balanced:

I think the game is modelling chinese offensive capability correctly. This really doesn't amount to much. However the japanese are simply overpowered compared to the historical facts.

As you can see I'am not saying chinese forces should retain more offensive power. I do not want this country to be conquested by the chinese forces. Instead I think this area really should be much harder to both sides. With the simple solutions I think it can be done. Still it is possible to conquer but it requires much more effort here.

Than again as said maybe I'am mediocre allied player vs my opponent being excellent.

treespider: Yeah. As mentioned above I think that has played a major role here.

I'am yet to truly test those Hurricanes in action since there a not many squadrons in play at the moment.

Hopefully they can provide good service.

Swenslim: Agreed. I think that is exactly what I'am saying. Look at the more detailed analysis above.[/size]

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen





Aztec, sad to say but your China strategy seems to be too much based on WITP.

As far as I can tell (from this AAR) you should asap try to attack (block) the Japanese rearward supply lanes with small Chinese forces. Your opponent will eventually defeat these forces, but they will slow him down. Building big Chinese stacks that contain several combat ineffective formations (there are some Chinese Corps that are very weak) does only lead to higher losses in the AE. Use these corps as guerilla/harrassment forces.

In addition, part of his Problem is (I believe) his opponent has brought in some elements from the Kwantung Army....They will always serve to upset the apple cart.[;)]

Not sure if this is the problem here. His opponent seems to use only two (very heavy) artillery battalions (5th + 8th) in China [frontline, could be that he uses other Kwantung forces as garrisons in Northern China]. The problem in this game (for aztec) seems (according to the AAR and the maps included) to be that his opponent attacks (basically) everywhere in Northern China and aztec has yet to develop a strategy to counter this.

No. There is an strategy here in play. I'am using more terrain obstacles but with the horrible supply situation and low exp. level units. Well, you can only do as much.

You are talking about going into offensive elsewhere. I do not see this happening since if you look at the chinese assaults around the map in this period of time... well, the results speak volumes.

I posted the "general" handicaps/problems in my previous post.

Simply stating that there is an strategy on the play and I do not see how it could have been executed better.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: aztez

No. There is an strategy here in play. I'am using more terrain obstacles but with the horrible supply situation and low exp. level units. Well, you can only do as much.

You are talking about going into offensive elsewhere. I do not see this happening since if you look at the chinese assaults around the map in this period of time... well, the results speak volumes.

I posted the "general" handicaps/problems in my previous post.

Simply stating that there is an strategy on the play and I do not see how it could have been executed better.

Aztec, I have no doubts that you have a strategy[;)]. I only think that you should amend your strategy by trying to block the supply paths of your opponent. And I was not talking about going into the offensive elsewhere (as far as I can tell [and I probably know the Japanese OOB quite well[8D]] your opponent has kept enough Japanese units in Southern China to thwart any offensive attempts there), just about moving into his rear with small/expendable Chinese units.

Btw., I have read your list of identified problems/potential fixes with interest.

[aztez]

Keregeulen: Yeah. I try to keep things as flexible as possible. We did try to pull out strong supply line blockade from the start. Unfortunately he did expect this and our forces got annihilated quickly. Dave actually did these kind of operations in our 1st encounter when Russians became active.

After that plan was put into garbage he launched couple very well supported shock assaults. I got the short stick on these encounters and the initiave moved into his court. As said he rarely makes anykind of mistakes so he just kept "the ball". I know you are very experienced player and have read a lot of your postings here. So, you know what it means when the initiave is lost.

That is something you do not want give out in PBEM games. Againts AI well it acceptable but vs good human player absolute no no.

I never have looked at the japanese situation from the start but I have no doubt the southern area is adequately garrisoned.

Oh, and if I came out too strong in my response earlier. I sincerely apologize. It is not always easy to type at work.

Those thoughts are based on this experience. As said I really do not want to chinese steamroll either on this area.

seydlitz: I had time to read your analysis on the patrol hexes. Very detailed and I doubt anyone can argue with those facts.

I can promise we will start using these "hints" and guidelines. Already sent out 7 submarines into those waters near Home Island. Several submarines were also sent into Pearl Harbour for replenishment and after they will move into designated hexes / zones.

I never seen such an analysis on sub warfare and you kind of read my mind when posting those pics.

Thank you and those maps should help out everyone around! I will refer to this from now on when thinking the patrol areas through.

Oh.. and I launched an 10 S-boat "offensive" againts Marshall islands. I think he has quite a few ships going in and out. This will be onetime large scale offensive and after this these submarines will be given other orders.

[aztez]

Soerabaja (march 13th and 14th 1942)


The 3 dimensional CAP did not work that well at Soerebaja.

This is best encounter I got with the fighters.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Soerabaja at 56,104

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 28



Allied aircraft
CW-21B Demon x 6
75A-7 Hawk x 2
Hurricane IIb Trop x 3
P-40E Warhawk x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
CW-21B Demon: 1 destroyed


The batlle was mostly lobsided. The main thing that became very clear was that I cannot provide the level of CAP for my naval forces. So, those cruisers are sent out. The destination yet to be decieded but it will be either Australia or India.

To give you an idea regarding these raids. I counted that on march 13th he launched +150 fighters to sweep Soerabaja. There were no bombers to speak of and I know he has them in this area.

Also keep in mind that he rested those Zero squadrons and Nells that flew againts Batavia last turn.

That is why I made the conclusion to send out the fleet. These ships would really be lost quickly and they would have not helped a bit.

Oh, it is march 15th and I decieded withdraw those Banshee and P40E squadrons. The cost in terms of PP lost was not acceptable. I need those PP elsewhere.

[aztez]

China (march 13th and 14th 1942)


The turn came in and I noticed that he is withdrawing his towards Nanyang.

There are now 27 units moving south. This was totally unexpected and I might ask what is he doing here.

We had initial discussions on what to do IF the chinese front collapses and only idea I gave that his hordes would not turn the pacific into 1 fortress after another. Nothing was agreed and we kind of agreed to get back to subject if it becomes imminent.

Personally I think he propably could have seized the Sian with acceptable losses. I have around 2700av points there and some enroute. Also there is the 1300av moving slowly towards north.

Nothing major here except this very much unexpected move by Dave.

He might have shown mercy or than again he might have come into conclusion that there is something out of "whack" in china.

I guess next few days will reveal what this was all about. In the meantime I'am moving some badly mauled corps into Chungking for rest and refit since fresh units are reaching the Sian area.

[Rob Brennan UK]

I'm loving this AAR [8D].

I just don't have any advice thats useful above what your already getting, some well known names posting here [:D]

This may turn into the next "PzB" AAR for the allies, given the hits already !

I have no idea how you or seydlitz have the time to post as much as you do, v grateful for it and i'm guessing you 'at work' monitor isnt in view of the boss [:D]

Keep up the good work, this is like a good book [;)]

[aztez]

Rob: I think these threads sometimes have life of their own! [:D]

Seriously, I think the best thing these kind of threads do is to start debate/discussions. That will give you extra motivation keep doing and report stuff.

Over 99% of these reports are written outside of work. At least in our business there usually is not easy days just problems after another.

I try to respond to every comment to best of my ability. Personally I don't even think that I know all the answers.

Really mean this when I say I do appreciate comments/views/thoughts/debates or just out of the park remarks. These are helping the community as an whole. (At least I think so)

Absolutely impossible to count how many hours this has taken so far but I'am enjoying it fully. The way I do it is to take some pics, than open word pad and start writing. Usually I don't finish it in one try and keep adding stuff. Eventually the turn "report" is done and ready for posting.

I think all the participants have covered a lot of stuff. ie.. air to air battles, ground combat ideas, submarine warfare etc etc.

As you said there are a lot of veteran posters giving out their views and you really can learn from these. I doubt that there is single player who can say that they have thought all these things through. Personally I try to adopt these into my gaming style. Also newcomers bring in fresh ideas into mix and have just as much to offer.

Also think that Dave will enjoy reading this through once we are done. That is important since without him there would not be anything to read about.

Thanks for the kind words Rob! I think there will be a lot to debate/discuss in forthcoming months ahead. We are just starting out.

Just wait when it is time to go into allied offensive! It will be an KABOOM for sure! [:D] This is not going to happen in the near future though.

[Q-Ball]

Aztez, keep up the great AAR! I am playing a PBEM as Japan, and it's good to see what struggles the Allies have. It's important to know where your opponent is having difficulty behind the scenes, and where he is vulnerable.

Allied players should focus alot on subs. The Japanese Economy is VERY difficult to manage!

[aztez]

Q-Ball: Thanks. I will promise to keep this running.

Actually been following quite a lot of AAR's when ever I have the time. Too bad I don't have the time post comments all around but that doesn't mean I'am not reading.

Without going into any details you seem to have very intresting plans on your campaing! [:D] No doubt it will become memorable and enjoyable game. For obvious reasons I will not go into any details regarding those.

I will adopt a lot of things into my test game vs Allied AI. At the moment though just do not have the time to do it. Mostly due to work restrictions. The days keep having just 24 hours eventhough you sometimes need more.

Actually emailed today to Dave to say thanks for the "ride" so far. Without him there would be no game as I said.

I'am very intrested to see the effect on submarine warfare. I'am adopting a lot of things into it that were covered here. Too bad it will take few months to really kick into the action.

[seydlitz_slith]

Aztez,
there is the outside possibility that since you have been hurting Dave in northern China lately that he has broken off his attack because he doubts that he can win. I know from the allied prospective this sounds silly, but consider this from the Japanese side.
1. You have destroyed more squads than he can replace in a month or two so he has to decide on which fronts to replace his losses. With the Java campaign looming, he possibly wants to prioritize his replacement squads there.
2. His 27 units are getting weaker as they advance. For him to continue the campaign he probably needs to pull them back off the line to rest and replace losses. If this is the case you will probably see them set up camp at Loyang.
3. When he sees your units it only displays a total number of men, not their quality, supply, or AV level. It is rather daunting to have 2500 troops move into an enemy hex containing 38,000 troops defending in favorable terrain. Even if he knows that he can beat you heads up, he can't be certain what is there until he attacks.
4.He knows that your reinforcements come back at Chungking, and the closer he gets to Chungking, the shorter the distance for your respawning units to travel. It may be smoke and mirrors, but it never looks like that to the Japanese player.
5. He went from steam rolling you to winning battles in bad terrain where he took significant losses. Your resistance is stiffer in every fight so it causes doubt on his part.

Think positive and put out some good vibes. The enemy is retreating today even if he may be back in another month.

Some of the units that he used in the last combat are pretty low down on the pecking order for the Japanese OOB. Units that I wouldn't use unless I couldn't get the AV any other way. Some were true garrison troopers, not much better trained than your units, just better supplied.

[Astarix]

Aztez,

I think Seydlitz summarized the situation in China pretty well.  Ever since Dave started fighting you in terrain favorable for the defense his casualties have increased dramatically.  Don't be too quick to minimize the effect of disruptions either.  Some of this is FOW, as in some of these disruptions are previously/partially disrupted squads taking additional casualties.  However, keep in mind that highly disrupted units take a long time to recover, some of these disruptions eventually work out to destroyed squads or represent partially destroyed squads.  Their morale sinks and if they are short on supplies, they start to lose troops to non battlefield effects.  Think of it as disease, desertion, etc. 

As Seydlitz pointed out he is using some very poorly trained and equipped puppet forces, which, by now, have to have taken casualties every bit as staggering as some of the losses you have incurred.  More impoprtantly these puppet units have a very low replacement rate and will take a very long time to recover, if they ever do.  If you are careful and manage your defenses well, when he comes back he is going to have a very bad time digging you out.

Also, don't be too quick to discount the effects of "guerilla" tactics with some of your weaker corps.  Remember that he still has to respond to these guys, and even if he destroys them, the effort of chasing these guys around and killing them takes troops away from the main attack.  Heck, even some of your badly damaged corps that are almost completely combat ineffective can be split into 3 units and used to block supply lines.  He simply cannot afford to let you cut his supplies.  Even if he sees these throwaways coming he still has to respond to them.  Given the level of forces he is committing to trying to dig you out of Northern China means that he doesn't have a lot of reserves so he will likely need to use frontline troops to stop these tactics.

I don't know if you've looked at the garrison requirements, but if you add them up, there is a pretty large AV requirement to garrison everything worth garrisoning for the Japanese, even if he abandons the places that dont hold resources or industry. 

Lastly, remember that Heavy Industry does not produce supply anymore, just LI and Refineries.  So if he captures all your oil/fuel centers its not going to collapse your supply production.  Light Industry does not have a fuel requirement to produce supply.

Something I want to add to Seydlitz's sub tactics.  Remember that you can use your subs to lay offensive minefields as well.  While I would select where to place these with extreme caution, you never know when a well placed Minefield might ding a high value target. 

Jason

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

It won't apply in China, but elsewhere at this point you will find the P-39D to be your best aircraft if used correctly. You need to stay below 10k, with good leaders and good pilots.

Yeah, but a wise Japanese player will preceed bombers with high altitude fighter sweeps. It is proving to be very effective against my P39s and P40s at low levels. In fact I just put my P40s at their highest altitude to counter it and they are doing much better. Both planes sucked at high altitudes so I guess it evens out.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

ORIGINAL: aztez

If you look at the pic ie. on post 408. The AVG aircraft details.

Lets assume he is doing sweep missions between 15 000 to 25 000 feet. In order to combat these most effectively P40B's should have their CAP at +30 000 feet. Corrrect? If he is escorting his bombers than the CAP should stay below 10 000 feet?

Post 408....the P-39D. Stay low. Stay around 9000 feet. You are 30 mph faster than the zero at this altitude and the difference in maneuverability is lowest. You should be about even in terms of combat except that you will have armor and enough firepower to hurt him if you hit him.

I personally think that the game does not have everything right in the P-39D. This was actually the plane that the Japanese most loved to encounter in New Guinea, and the performance drop off above 14000 feet is just not drastic enough.

RE the P40B....Yes. Fight at 31-32K. You might also try doing a sweep with these sometimes. Catch him sleeping at 20-30% cap and at a lower altitude and you can get in a few kills.

I personally think that the game does not have everything right in the P-39D. This was actually the plane that the Japanese most loved to encounter in New Guinea, and the performance drop off above 14000 feet is just not drastic enough.

Yes, the Japanese loved it because to get back from Lae or Buna, escorting P39s had to climb to get over the Owen's Stanley mountains. They had nowhere to escape to as turning back down slope meant running out of fuel. Fish in a barrel.

[aztez]

seydlitz: Those could be the decieding factors. I asked Dave whether he was actually withdrawing or not but got no response.

It actually might be tied into Java campaign. Last turn propably saw the beginning of it. More about that in the actual combat report section.

All those make sense. He still has those divisions 80 miles south of Sian. However he launched an ground offensive in this region so that kind of indicates he is still staying around here.

I checked and noticed that he has lost quite a lot of armour in past months. Maybe he is running short of these.

We will propably now what the plans are within few weeks or so. At the moment though I'am happy that he is "leaving". Time to rotate some battered units into Chungking are for RR.

Btw I know Dave is enjoying your AAR with many others. You might have given him some ideas too. Who knows?!

Astarix: Appreciated. FOW might be playing big role here. It gives some very odd results. Allthough I can confirm that the allied losses are pretty accurate at least in terms of ground warfare. I cannot comment on the japanese side of things.

I wasn't aware that those troops he used were having low replacement rates! I thought they were pretty much standard. The japanese OOB is kind of total mystery to me.

I'am trying to make most of this "retreat". As stated to seydlitz above I'am rotating units into Chungking and back. I have better supply levels there so the replacement ratio should go faster. Trying to make most of it in many ways.

The initial guerilla warfare was repulsed. I haven't thrown this out just as yet. At the moment I'am making some suicide assaults in order to the unit destroyed completely. Once I get my defense properly set in the north than it is time to give this tactic another try. If we are lucky than he has moved some of the rear sweeping units out.

I haven't looked at the garrison requirements. Well, I have for the allied side but I'am not sure whether these are same for the japanese side. I guess they are than.

Hmmm. Ok, well I thought the supply production would come to halt if I lost the key roads into the north! If that is the case than I was wrong in many ways. That is good information there.

There seems to be valuable submarines that can lay an minefield here and there so I will put these into use as soon as possible. It will take sometime to get this properly rolling.

crsutton: I have noticed this. He is doing always the high sweeping missions before anykind of bombing runs. There has been couple of times when his fighters refused to fly and we got nice results vs his bombers. The happy days seem to be over though. There are now massive sweep missions and only than he is moving his bombers forwards.

I'am experiencing the same results what said. P40 models with maxium alltitude seems the only way to even attrite these sweeps. So, they are now set on this way.

The P39D's are mystery to me. They performed really well againts KB in the southern pacific and these squadrons were flying between 15000 - 20000 feet. I have now many of them at 9000 feet but haven't had any significant airbattles to see what the effect actually is.

[aztez]

Java (march 15th and 16th 1942)

The invasions are about to begin. This became very clear after the turn arrived. (look at the pic below)

It seems to 2 axed with smaller force heading towards Palempang and the main force coming gathering at Balikpapan.

Dutch submarine SS 024 got an glimpse of the 1 enemy invasion TF.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Tandjoengselor at 68,95

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
CL Natori
DD Karii
DD Uranami
DD Ariake
DD Yamakaze
DD Asashio
PB Seikai Maru
SC CHa-24
SC CHa-10
DMS W-17
DMS W-5
xAP Ukishima Maru
xAP Palau Maru
xAP Ural Maru
xAP Mizuho Maru
xAK Zenoa Maru
xAK Yubari Maru
xAK Oigawa Maru
xAK Kisogawa Maru
xAK Banshu Maru
xAK Aki Maru
xAK Hokutai Maru
xAKL Chosen Maru
xAKL Suez Maru
xAKL Jouban Maru
xAKL Kamishima Maru
xAKL Buyo Maru
xAKL Yosyu Maru
xAKL Nissen Maru #2
xAKL Meiko Maru
xAKL Jinsan Maru
xAKL Arizama Maru
DD Kuri
DD Fuyo
DD Tachikaze
DD Matsukaze

Allied Ships
SS O24



DD Kuri fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Fuyo fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Tachikaze fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Matsukaze fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Fuyo fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Fuyo attacking submerged sub ....
SS O24 eludes DD Fuyo by diving deep
DD Fuyo cannot establish contact with SS O24
DD Fuyo fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Fuyo fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Fuyo fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

...and there are more around the area,

It seems that he has brought his whole navy with him.

There were heavy fighters sweeps againts Batavia and some Nells were in action there too. Dave just made sure he has the airsuperiority all around.

The starting really is not random. Remember we were "forced" to withdraw those Banshees and P40E's last turn. Well, it wasn't a must but PP penalty would have grown too large. Maybe this fixed withdrawal date could adjusted in the future patches. It would make your opponent more cautious when advancing.