Petition - pilots and exp

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Mynok
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by Mynok »

ORIGINAL: mullk

I like the idea of training improving skills and combat improving experience.  However all training should improve experience to a certain point with low experience units.  Also I think all training should be capped to experience level.  If you have a unit with 50% experience all skills should be capped to 50%.  Gives experience an importance in regards to training and even very experienced units still need advanced training.  Training points should accumulate rather quickly as opposed to experience which should accumulate more slowly.  I think of skill as how to fly and experience as nerve and ability to handle change and make right decisions.  Skills put tools in the tool bag.  Experience lets the pilot know the best time to use those tools.

I'll also agree wholeheartedly with this concept. However, I will posit some caveats. Experience in real life covers both combat and non-combat experience, as Kwik demonstrated with his landing on ice example. Non-combat but experience indeed. Being an old programmer, I tend to dislike variables representing two different things, but it seems to be necessitated by the limits of the game engine in this regard. Experience certainly must represent familiarity with the aircraft, but it also must represent combat lessons learned.

Perhaps a soft cap on trainable experience levels with the rest only earned through combat. What level that would be must be determined by those with more familiarity with how all these factors are used in the code. I definitely like the idea of combat experience growing quickly in early missions and tapering off rapidly after that.

Skills OTOH should be gained by both non-combat and combat semi-equally. Perhaps defensive skills should lean more toward combat experience, whereas bombing, strafing and other such skills aided most by repetition should be equally by both methods.
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Tomcat
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by Tomcat »

It seems to me that in some ways skill and experience are independent of each other, but in some ways they affect each other. Once upon a time I had to qualify with an M16. In the relative "comfort" of the firing range, with no pressure and lots of time, I might be able to qualify as an expert. On the other hand, in the heat of battle, with people shooting at me and opponents moving rapidly all around me I might miss most of my shots, or perhaps even freeze to the point of not getting any shots off. If I had never learned to shoot I probably wouldn't hit much in a battle, but just because I had developed the skill is no guarantee that I could use it effectively in battle. I think that combat pilots practice dogfights precisely because they simulate the stress of battle. To some extent this form of training can improve both "skill" and "experience". However, I read about a test some US fighter jocks did with some of their counterparts from India and the US side got embarrased because the Indians didn't follow "the book". Our "experienced" pilots were fooled and in this simulated dogfight many were "dead" before they got more experienced.

I think the points I'm making here have been made by others, in one form or another. Perhaps the only thing I might add is that combat experience is different than non-combat experience, and it seems to me that a more accurate simulation would be that a pilot's effective skill is lowered during combat by low combat experience. Similarly, a pilot with more combat experience would not suffer as much of a penalty against his skills. I can gain lots of experience in non-combat situations, and I can polish all sorts of skills against targets that can't kill me, but there is still a form of "experience" that is different, and if I lack this then there is a distinct possibility that I might not survive.

There is also another dimension that is not the same as skill or experience, not even combat experience, and that is "aptitude". Some have high aptitude for what they do, and some don't. Training can only take you so far, and experience can only take you so far. A person with higher aptitude will do better than a person with lower aptitude, even with the same amounts of training and experience. Perhaps we don't want to model aptitude in this game because we can make the simplifying assumption that over significant numbers of pilots the differences wash out, but if we are talking, for example, about building a sports team you can bet that I'd be looking at aptitude as well as other factors.

So, I think that when it comes to AE pilots, skill levels can be higher than experience, but when flying in non-combat situations experience may limit the effective skill level to less than what a pilot might demonstrate in training. In combat situations the effective ability of a pilot becomes a function of their combat experience, their overall flying experience, and their skill level. Their effective skill level would be at some percentage of their training skill level, perhaps 100% in the ideal case. Combat experience, in effect, becomes another "skill" such that all other factors being equal a pliot with more combat experience should beat an opponent with less experience. It may also happen that a pilot with more combat experience may beat an opponent with more overall flight experience. Experience gained in training and in non-combat situations is good, but I'll take combat veterans over newbies.
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Shark7
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Shark7

On training versus combat:

I can't remember exactly where I heard this, so I can't credit appropriately, but I do remember something about pilots during Vietnam. That is any pilot that survived his first 10 combat missions was likely going to survive the war until he rotated out. The reason being that in those first 10 missions, he will learn from combat experience and other veteran pilots the things you simply do not learn in flight school.

This is eventually led to the advance Air Force and Navy training programmes such as Red Flag....these programmes allow combat experienced pilots the chance to pass on their knowledge via mock combat that is as close to the real thing as possible. The root of these types of programmes can be found in WWII with the rotation home of US combat pilots to teach the new cadres.

With all that said we get back to my theory on this:

Training should give gradual experience and skill gain up to a soft cap point (not all pilots will be the same), but there is only so much you can learn from the pilot instructor. When the pilot enters combat he should gain skills very quickly for the first few missions, slowing after the first few and gain experience and skills very slowly after the first 10 or so missions. This simulates the 'On the Fly' learning pilots get by operating with more experienced pilots.

In programming terms, experience and skill gain should be on a Bell Curve with a steep gain at first that eventually flattens to a point where gains a minimal. Ideally, a pilot with 25 missions would fall somewhere in the 65-75 experience/skill levels, with exceptions of course. Getting to 80 would need to take 50-100 missions, and getting much higher than that should be the very, very rare pilot, ala Sakai, Saburo.
This is already coded.

Ah, that's nice to know. Since I don't remember reading it in the manual that must be one of those under the hood things. [:D]
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Shark7

On training versus combat:

I can't remember exactly where I heard this, so I can't credit appropriately, but I do remember something about pilots during Vietnam. That is any pilot that survived his first 10 combat missions was likely going to survive the war until he rotated out. The reason being that in those first 10 missions, he will learn from combat experience and other veteran pilots the things you simply do not learn in flight school.

This is eventually led to the advance Air Force and Navy training programmes such as Red Flag....these programmes allow combat experienced pilots the chance to pass on their knowledge via mock combat that is as close to the real thing as possible. The root of these types of programmes can be found in WWII with the rotation home of US combat pilots to teach the new cadres.

With all that said we get back to my theory on this:

Training should give gradual experience and skill gain up to a soft cap point (not all pilots will be the same), but there is only so much you can learn from the pilot instructor. When the pilot enters combat he should gain skills very quickly for the first few missions, slowing after the first few and gain experience and skills very slowly after the first 10 or so missions. This simulates the 'On the Fly' learning pilots get by operating with more experienced pilots.

In programming terms, experience and skill gain should be on a Bell Curve with a steep gain at first that eventually flattens to a point where gains a minimal. Ideally, a pilot with 25 missions would fall somewhere in the 65-75 experience/skill levels, with exceptions of course. Getting to 80 would need to take 50-100 missions, and getting much higher than that should be the very, very rare pilot, ala Sakai, Saburo.
This is already coded.

Ah, that's nice to know. Since I don't remember reading it in the manual that must be one of those under the hood things. [:D]
There are a lot of those...[:)]
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

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gladiatt
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by gladiatt »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

On training versus combat:

I can't remember exactly where I heard this, so I can't credit appropriately, but I do remember something about pilots during Vietnam. That is any pilot that survived his first 10 combat missions was likely going to survive the war until he rotated out. The reason being that in those first 10 missions, he will learn from combat experience and other veteran pilots the things you simply do not learn in flight school.

This is eventually led to the advance Air Force and Navy training programmes such as Red Flag....these programmes allow combat experienced pilots the chance to pass on their knowledge via mock combat that is as close to the real thing as possible. The root of these types of programmes can be found in WWII with the rotation home of US combat pilots to teach the new cadres.

With all that said we get back to my theory on this:

Training should give gradual experience and skill gain up to a soft cap point (not all pilots will be the same), but there is only so much you can learn from the pilot instructor. When the pilot enters combat he should gain skills very quickly for the first few missions, slowing after the first few and gain experience and skills very slowly after the first 10 or so missions. This simulates the 'On the Fly' learning pilots get by operating with more experienced pilots.

In programming terms, experience and skill gain should be on a Bell Curve with a steep gain at first that eventually flattens to a point where gains a minimal. Ideally, a pilot with 25 missions would fall somewhere in the 65-75 experience/skill levels, with exceptions of course. Getting to 80 would need to take 50-100 missions, and getting much higher than that should be the very, very rare pilot, ala Sakai, Saburo.

If you just allow me to pop up in here.
Not on Pacific theater, but European. Having read byography of pilots ( for example, Pierre Clostermann "Grand Cirque"), some pilots could reach unbelievable skills with experience. Some encounters with germans pilots fighting since the beginning of the war (5000 or so missions !!) would let the good allies pilots in disaray! These guys had a knowledge of their planes, of aerial physics, and dirty combat tricks, that lead them to make manoeuver that were unprobable...
In game term, this could mean "endless" learning, even after hundrers of missions...
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leehunt27@bloomberg.net
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by leehunt27@bloomberg.net »

great Elf! glad to know it will be fixed. thanks to all the developers for their hard work on this stuff and staying in touch.  The golden question is of course, will the training fix in the next patch apply to PBEM games in progress? thanks :)
John 21:25
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Sheytan
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by Sheytan »

Thats a shame then! I DEMAND THE ELF gets paid, and quite a bit for his devoted efforts to increase the quality of AE. My point about bieng a customer was that I had a vested interest in the game btw.

I also appreciate you explaining the limitations upon your time. I regret my choice of words. Please accept my apology.

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Thats a rather arbitrary response. How about you limit yourself to known issues you are in fact looking to fix? Simple enough?

By the way you do realise I am a customer correct?

Edited to add the following, In case you didnt notice, no one here is bashing the "failings" of the AE model. See where im going? But rather, a bit more transparency regarding what is going to be addressed in future, see where im going here? I suspect most people here very much enjoy the game as is, want to see it improved, and have nothing but praise for the folks that made this gem. See where im going again?

Dont take my comments personally, all you can do is improve a already outstanding game. Just introduce a bit more clarity on what you do or do not plan to fix in future as opposed to having thread discussions "discover" them, then admit you are looking into it.

Sorry if I offended you, or presumed upon your time to reply to this discussion about lack of EXP gain via combat. [;)]


Nothing you posted here has been outright offensive. I think my somewhat tongue-in-cheek demeanor was more a result of a perceived demand in your tone. Lots of "shoulds" and "you needs", even after I thought I answered the call of the thread. It seems it wasn't enough, or at least good enough,...or specific enough? I am still not sure. [&:]

I recognize you as a supporter of AE and I am thankful for that. But as far as a customer/proprietor relationship I presume you are alluding to the theory that in such a relationship you would always be right, and I would have to be...um.. naw couldn't be![;)]

But to put your mind at ease, that theory has little application vis a vis our (yours & mine) relationship, as I have received no money for my trouble. [:D]

If you have more questions, I'd be happy to answer them, but it is difficult to keep up as this doesn't even qualify as a job for me. In fact as an active duty member of the US Armed Forces, I am legally unable to hold a second job...but I digress. Keeping up with just this one thread id hard enough when they take off like this. Not to mention, all the other threads in this forum and the 3 others I have access to...oh and email...

how do we increase your admin leader skill? [;)]
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Shark7
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

ORIGINAL: Shark7

On training versus combat:

I can't remember exactly where I heard this, so I can't credit appropriately, but I do remember something about pilots during Vietnam. That is any pilot that survived his first 10 combat missions was likely going to survive the war until he rotated out. The reason being that in those first 10 missions, he will learn from combat experience and other veteran pilots the things you simply do not learn in flight school.

This is eventually led to the advance Air Force and Navy training programmes such as Red Flag....these programmes allow combat experienced pilots the chance to pass on their knowledge via mock combat that is as close to the real thing as possible. The root of these types of programmes can be found in WWII with the rotation home of US combat pilots to teach the new cadres.

With all that said we get back to my theory on this:

Training should give gradual experience and skill gain up to a soft cap point (not all pilots will be the same), but there is only so much you can learn from the pilot instructor. When the pilot enters combat he should gain skills very quickly for the first few missions, slowing after the first few and gain experience and skills very slowly after the first 10 or so missions. This simulates the 'On the Fly' learning pilots get by operating with more experienced pilots.

In programming terms, experience and skill gain should be on a Bell Curve with a steep gain at first that eventually flattens to a point where gains a minimal. Ideally, a pilot with 25 missions would fall somewhere in the 65-75 experience/skill levels, with exceptions of course. Getting to 80 would need to take 50-100 missions, and getting much higher than that should be the very, very rare pilot, ala Sakai, Saburo.

If you just allow me to pop up in here.
Not on Pacific theater, but European. Having read byography of pilots ( for example, Pierre Clostermann "Grand Cirque"), some pilots could reach unbelievable skills with experience. Some encounters with germans pilots fighting since the beginning of the war (5000 or so missions !!) would let the good allies pilots in disaray! These guys had a knowledge of their planes, of aerial physics, and dirty combat tricks, that lead them to make manoeuver that were unprobable...
In game term, this could mean "endless" learning, even after hundrers of missions...

Exactly, which is why I proposed a bell curve and not a hardcap. You do have to admit that those pilots you speak of (Erich Hartmann comes to mind) are few and far between. They are the exceptions, not the rule. We don't want every pilot becoming an Aces Ace, but we also don't want all our pilots to be fodder for the meat grinder either.

With a bell curve, each experience point gained becomes exponentially more difficult to obtain as opposed to a linear system with set 100 mission = 1 xp, etc. With a bell curve, the first few xp points are easy to get, but the higher they go, the more time it takes, which is what we are looking for I think.
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wdolson
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

great Elf! glad to know it will be fixed. thanks to all the developers for their hard work on this stuff and staying in touch.  The golden question is of course, will the training fix in the next patch apply to PBEM games in progress? thanks :)

Yes. Things that are pure code changes will usually be applicable to games in progress without any hitches. I'm playing a game against the AI that I've been playing since just before the original release (started under the last release candidate). I've updated the exe many times with no problems.

Bill
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leehunt27@bloomberg.net
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RE: Petition - pilots and exp

Post by leehunt27@bloomberg.net »

thanks Wdolson
John 21:25
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