Axis - How to defeat the Thunderbolt?

[Fallschirmjager]

In my PBEM game as the Axis, this is the greatest threat I face right now. I am simply unable to take on the P-47 Thunderbolt with any kind of success. My opponent of course is keeping his raids short and mostly within fighter cover. So I have the option of either going after the bombers with fighter cover or simply letting them flatten their targets and not engaging.
He is also sending P-47's out on sweeps and even escorting medium bombers with them just to trick me into engaging (nasty suprise when that happens)
Most of my AtA losses have been to the Thunderbolt and I am starting to lose some of my high EXP pilots to these nasty machines. I realize that historicaly the P-47 had a fantastic kill ratio and losses were only about 0.7% of all sorties. But there has to be some way I can start dealing with these things. At some point these things are going to start converting into the better models and some will convert into the dreaded P-51. If these pilots are having success against me they are building up their EXP and they are going to be really hard to kill down the road.

So what can I do? None of my planes seem to be effective against them. Bf-109 G6 get chewed up by them and the FW-190A does not do much better. Probably a little less than 1:1 kill ratio. I cannot accept that.

[wernerpruckner]

as long as the Allied player keeps his raids very short and well protected with escorts, you will hardly get anything better than 1:1.

You only can achieve something with overwhelming force....but to do that in a coastal area will be suicide.......so take another way....use the small Staffel and Schwarm sized units and try to use them in their optimal altitude....you will only make few kills, but you will probably have even less losses.

you have some (two) Me109G-5 units - use them only against the highest escorts....your other units should be close by, but not on attack .... move them as patrols
try to seperate one of the fighter groups and attack them......they will fight back, but you can move several units against one Group........

[joliverlay]

Let him flatten the costal areas. Don't engage unless he moves as far as the Ruhr valley.

If you must engage, use only G5 unitis and bounce (attack) only the highest escort. Leave escorted bombers alone until he moves away from the coast.

I would convert about 8 factories to FW190D (away from the coast) and use the 8 engines for that type that are unused. If you convert already functional factories you can generate 8 points/turn towards research starting in about 40 days or less. Then you get 240 points/month towards advancing their discovery. (100 points may mean 1 month advance). (make sure you have enought 190Parts to match.

I would also consider converting 16 DB605A engines (1-2 point each) and 4 air frames (3me110G4, me210) to Me262. If you use 1-2 point factories you can get the jet research online in 20 days.

Finally you could convert the HS and IAR engines to DB605AS and IAR/French/Italian airframes to 106G-6as and start researching this. They will come on line Jan if you do nothing. If you could make 4/day for research you might reduce the discovery time by 1-2 months.

The objective is not to win, but to avoid defeat. Preserve your force, avoid fights, then fight with overwhealming force. Time is on your side.

[kaybayray]

Be aware that when the D model comes out and as the war progresses the higher the Jug flies the faster and more manuverable it becomes with respect to your AC which will lose power and agility comparitively.

In this area you will start to lose the odds battle and AC with it. So AC specially suited for high alt combat may be better.

Later,
KayBay

[Fallschirmjager]

I can't let him just flatten coastal areas. One those areas do figure into your overall production. And secondly if I continually let him get in easy missions then his squadrons will build up easy EXP and become much much harder to defeat later in the war. I have to do some contesting. I just have to figure out tactics that give me a better kill ratio. I am not having problems shooting down bombers. I have shot down over 200 B-17s in 8 days. The problems is that my attacking forces are taking losses against the P-47's and I want to start shooting them down. So far I have shot done about ~25 P-47's.

[2ndACR]

Have 1 fighter group jump the P47's the moment they appear on the way in.......that will force them to jettison drop tanks and really lose range.......I usually have them stripped off the bombers by the time they cross that inlet of water near Amsterdam......then I pounce on them with everything I have....even my night fighters. The moment the escorts appear to escort the bombers back......I jump them to to prolong the killing.
 
I just killed 104 B17's in 1 day using the above tactics......total losses for the Allies 193 to my 82........46 of my losses were in Italy......blasted Spits caught a landing group.

[Fallschirmjager]

Spitfires in the BTR phase of the game really suck hard. I am shooting them down in bunches and my opponent early own uses them for airfield attacks but lost so many due to flak that he has since given up that tactic. Now he really can't find a use for them.
P-38s are also not really that much of a threat either. I am shooting them down in good numbers too. It is just the damn Thunderbolts that I am having a problem with. Hard to shoot down and they can bounce my fighters with ease. And there is no damaging one of my fighters when they engage, it is almost 100% of the time a straight kill.

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I can't let him just flatten coastal areas. One those areas do figure into your overall production. And secondly if I continually let him get in easy missions then his squadrons will build up easy EXP and become much much harder to defeat later in the war. I have to do some contesting. I just have to figure out tactics that give me a better kill ratio. I am not having problems shooting down bombers. I have shot down over 200 B-17s in 8 days. The problems is that my attacking forces are taking losses against the P-47's and I want to start shooting them down. So far I have shot done about ~25 P-47's.

There is really not too much of strategic value west of the Rhur, and the REALLY valuable stuff is further in still. If he is loosing 200 b-17's in 8 days then his units skill isn't going to be going up too much, and if you are trading 1:1 in fighters then his fighter units will be either gaining or loosing experience at about the same rate as yours.

Ultimately it seems pretty much the same problem that the LW faced IRL. They could hurt the allies but it cost them too, and attrition is going to work for the allies.

My 2 cents:

1) As long as he is not going deep, you can count on most of your major factories to be online until the P-51 arrives, make the most of it.

2) The other above advice is sound, you can change your tactics to concerntrate on the fighters and try "Picking them off" on their return or bouncing the high cover.

3) You're never going to win the numbers game against the allied fighters.
Even if by some miracle you get consistent 2:1 kills, the allies can quite happily (and consistently) sustain those losses. I would smash the B-17's as hard as possible, the fighters are somewhat irrevlevant if the bombers are grounded due to losses, and preventing bombs dropping is your #1 goal.

Best of luck [;)]

[joliverlay]

Are you looking for an Axis opponent Dobey?

[Dobey455]

PM Sent

[guctony]

Well One interesting Tactic I tried was putting every aviable Italian and non-german planes to french coast. In 20 days They shoot down 500 Allied fighters some 100 being P47 I lossed every exprienced Italian pilot. In the end they surrender anyway. It worked For AI. I dot know For PBEM. Now because AI tries to engage German border targets early on I think I have a certain Exprience advantage which I try to improve with Engaging P47 escorts with low quality groups and keeping Exprienced groups behind the trail to engage lone fuel hungry P-47s. offcourse it work only in long range Engagements. But it is wise to keep Exprienced units for some quality planes.