MARE BELLUM - ADMIRAL'S EDITION EDITION

[DuckofTindalos]

It was always my impression that the main administrative center for French Indochina was Hanoi, with Saigon being secondary to it. Am I correct in this?

[Skyland]

Yes, you are right.

[DuckofTindalos]

Here's my attempt at a land forces OOB. It's based almost entirely on the historical OOB, as I've tried to not make the Army of Indochina unrealistically strong. French troops were needed elsewhere.

Anyway:

Armée de Indochine(HQ Hanoi)

Division Tonkin (Hanoi)

• 1e Brigade (Hanoi)
• 2e Brigade (Hanoi)
• 3e Brigade (Hanoi)
• 4e Regiment d'Artillerie Coloniale (Hanoi)

Division Cochinchine (Saigon)

• Cap St. Jacques Brigade (Saigon)
• Cambodge Brigade (Phnom Penh)
• Cochinchine Brigade (Battambang)
• 5e Regiment d'Artillerie Coloniale (-) (Saigon)

Annam-Laos Brigade (Hue) (has a groupe of 5e RAC attached).

I/409 RADCA anti-aircraft battalion
Indochine engineer battalion

I've chosen to make the two division HQ's corps HQ's in the game, and have the maneuver units be brigades.

There were four small mechanized detachments, assigned each to a specific infantry regiment, which I've rolled into their corresponding brigade OOBs. Thus, the 2e and 3e Brigades of the Division Tonkin, the Annam Brigade and the Cochinchine Brigade each have a small number of light tanks, armoured cars and motorized support.

Additionally, there are small base forces present at Hanoi, Hue, Bien Hoa, Cam Ranh, Phnom Penh and Saigon.

[DuckofTindalos]

I'd like to explore the possibility of maybe creating a few smaller additional units, which might come into play as being raised when the Japs and Thais invade. Perhaps Gendarmerie-type paramilitary forces would be thrown into the fight? Thoughts?

[chacal83000]

From what i know during the war of indochine, Gendarmes were sended in numbers (and lost +/- 650 of them) but it seems they were spread all over the country, some even incorporetad in bigger units, jumping even in paradrop actions. But of course the enemy was very different that a Japanese enemy would be, so the strategy would be different too.

It would be possible, but where from those Gendarmes would come from ? If metropolitan France is occuped i don't see the possibility of big units of Gendarmerie being sended to Indochine. Maybe those already present locally ? That woud be few.

Maybe you should rise some locals ? There was some units that was raised during Indochine war, so why not ?

[Alikchi2]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'd like to explore the possibility of maybe creating a few smaller additional units, which might come into play as being raised when the Japs and Thais invade. Perhaps Gendarmerie-type paramilitary forces would be thrown into the fight? Thoughts?

I think perhaps if the French hold out long enough, a few poorly trained native companies should spawn in Saigon? I'm not knowledgeable enough about the politics to know if that's plausible.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It was always my impression that the main administrative center for French Indochina was Hanoi, with Saigon being secondary to it. Am I correct in this?

Also, IIRC the CNI was HQ'ed at Haiphong, while the repair facilities were at Saigon.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'd like to explore the possibility of maybe creating a few smaller additional units, which might come into play as being raised when the Japs and Thais invade. Perhaps Gendarmerie-type paramilitary forces would be thrown into the fight? Thoughts?

I think perhaps if the French hold out long enough, a few poorly trained native companies should spawn in Saigon? I'm not knowledgeable enough about the politics to know if that's plausible.

The Vietmanese historically hated the French, due to the brutality of the French Colonials. That is what eventually led to the Vietnam War. Initially it was about Vietnam gaining independence from France.

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'd like to explore the possibility of maybe creating a few smaller additional units, which might come into play as being raised when the Japs and Thais invade. Perhaps Gendarmerie-type paramilitary forces would be thrown into the fight? Thoughts?

There was some small units of "paramilitary" forces all over the territory for local police called Garde Indigene ou Garde Indochinoise. They were also engaged against Thai and Japan.

And also some "partisans", local villagers armed by the administration in order to defend themselves against chinese pirates in Tonkin.

[Likendeeler]

Maybe you want to include some smaller french ships at Indochina too.
There are qite a few subchasers, patrol boats and surveying vessels.
CH.111 (COMMANDANT BOURDAIS) and CH.112 (COMMANDANT AVALANCHE) for example, two steel-hulled subchasers (128 tons, built 1919-1920, one 75mm) or Gunboat/First class sloop Tahure (644 tons), sunk 30 Apr 1944 (USS Flasher).
There are more.

[DuckofTindalos]

I was not familiar with these. Thanks, Likendeeler.

I believe the Tahure is an example of what the French would call an "aviso", no?

[chacal83000]

Yes, or a Colonial Aviso from what i found.

[chacal83000]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

ORIGINAL: Terminus
I'd like to explore the possibility of maybe creating a few smaller additional units, which might come into play as being raised when the Japs and Thais invade. Perhaps Gendarmerie-type paramilitary forces would be thrown into the fight? Thoughts?

I think perhaps if the French hold out long enough, a few poorly trained native companies should spawn in Saigon? I'm not knowledgeable enough about the politics to know if that's plausible.

The Vietmanese historically hated the French, due to the brutality of the French Colonials. That is what eventually led to the Vietnam War. Initially it was about Vietnam gaining independence from France.

[:-] Well... they hated French that much that up to 50.000 locals (one thirds of the expeditionary force) fought along the French during the war of Indochine...
The reasons of the war were a bit just more complicated that the "bad colonials" vs. "good commies" !

[Dili]

Epinal a sister of Tahure in photo. Designed to look like merchant ships and with merchant hull.

2 boiler 2 shafts Parsons Turbines 5000shp 20kt 200t fuel 3000nm at 11kt.

Edit: changed photo of Epinal to Tahure.

[Likendeeler]

Yes, an interesting ship. TAHURE was designed to resemble a merchant ship but carried two 5.5inch guns and one 75mm AA.

Another one is FRANCIS-GARNIER, built 1927 and displacing 639 tons, capable of 15 knots and armed with two 3.9inch/40cal guns, one 75mm AA and two 37mm AA. On the 20 of February 1944, Francis Garnier hit a mine near the peninsula of Lagan, carrying freight herself.

Another sloop, MARNE dated from the First World War, displaced 601 tons, carried four 3.9inch (100mm)/40cal guns and (theoretically) made 21 knots. Marne was scuttled in 1945 to prevent a japanese capture.

And if you like Vichy biplanes from Indochina...

[Dili]

The excellent Naval History Net has a good list for ship commanders, not up to date probably but it is better than to invent names.

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-390 ... Navies.htm

INDO-CHINA 1939

Amiral Jean Decoux

Headquarters at Saigon

5th Cruiser Division (Contre Amiral Jules E M A Terraux) - heavy cruiser SUFFREN (comp 1 Jan 30, CV R J M Dillard) en route from Singapore to Saigon, light cruiser LAMOTTE PICQUETT (1 Sep 26, Flag, Terraux, CV M D R Berenger) at Saigon

Sloops - AMIRAL CHARNER (comp 1933, CF F M Faye, at Saigon), RIGAULT DE GENOUILLY (1932, CF J C Plante, CF Frossard from 18 Jan) at Shanghai, SAVORGNAN DE BRAZZA (1932, CF A R D De Badens) at Saigon, TAHURE (1919, CC R C R Mercadier) at Amoy

Yangtze Flotilla Gunboats - BALNY (comp 1920, LV F G P Jaubert) at Chungking, DOUDART DE LA GREE (1909, CC M J A P De Centenier de Fauque) at Hankow, to Shanghai at end of month, FRANCIS GARNIER (1931, CF A M A Robin, SO, Yangtse) at Shanghai

Si Kiang Station Gunboat - ARGUS (comp 1922, CC M G H Ruyneau de Saint-George, SO, Si Kiang area) at Hong Kong

Sloops at Saigon – LA PÉROUSE (comp 1919, CF L G E Frossard) surveying vessel employed as a sloop, MARNE (1917, CC M A M De Rodellec du Porzic)

Gunboats at Saigon - AVALANCHE (1920, ENS S Ouvaroff), COMMANDANT BOURDAIS (comp 1920, LV L A Martin, SO)

Gunboats at Haiphong - MYTHO (comp 1934, LV J P G Mienville), TOURANE (1934, LV L J P S Pinel), VIGILANTE (1922, CC M J L Leparmentier, SO)

Submarines - L'ESPOIR (comp 32, LV H S A Tezenas du Montecel) dep station after refitting in Nov, dep Singapore on 5 Nov, arr Toulon Dec 39

Unfortunately their list for 1940 is not so complete:
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4006-16French.htm

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: chacal83

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

I think perhaps if the French hold out long enough, a few poorly trained native companies should spawn in Saigon? I'm not knowledgeable enough about the politics to know if that's plausible.

The Vietmanese historically hated the French, due to the brutality of the French Colonials. That is what eventually led to the Vietnam War. Initially it was about Vietnam gaining independence from France.

[:-] Well... they hated French that much that up to 50.000 locals (one thirds of the expeditionary force) fought along the French during the war of Indochine...
The reasons of the war were a bit just more complicated that the "bad colonials" vs. "good commies" !

You can stop that line of thought IMMEDIATELY. This thread is about my mod, not politics. The end.

[DuckofTindalos]

I'm getting terrible flash-backs to the stock version of MB, when I had to rip out the entire IJN submarine arm one boat and one class at a time. With AE, it's so much easier, being able to overwrite multiple slots at a time.

[Dili]

Are you using mass edit via spreadsheet?

[DuckofTindalos]

Nope. All done in the editor.