Does the AI cheat?

[Time Traveller]

Hi all. Enjoying this game a lot. Brings back old memories. But I have a question. Does the AI in EDBTR cheat with production numbers, intelligence, etc? The reason I ask is because from what I have read, the AI totally cheats in War in the Pacific AE (teleporting convoys, massive production advantages, god eye intelligence, etc). All that AI cheating has turned me off from purchasing WITP AE. I am really hoping there is no AI cheating going on in EDBTR.

[harley]

Not really. Combat is clean - no bonuses either way, production is true - the AI gets the same FACs with the same potential output, I took out the AI routine to sweep occupied airfields, (yes, that was a cheat from the old game) and replaced it with a weighting system based on spotted units on the ground, spotted flak and the age of the recon.

I can't think of anything that could be considered cheating. If you have something you think might be, please let me know and I'll investigate.

[Time Traveller]

ORIGINAL: harley

Not really. Combat is clean - no bonuses either way, production is true - the AI gets the same FACs with the same potential output, I took out the AI routine to sweep occupied airfields, (yes, that was a cheat from the old game) and replaced it with a weighting system based on spotted units on the ground, spotted flak and the age of the recon.

I can't think of anything that could be considered cheating. If you have something you think might be, please let me know and I'll investigate.

Great news. Thanks for the reply. I wasn't suspicious of the AI of cheating. Was just curious.

[Walloc]

Deleted!

[JudgeDredd]

I would say it doesn't. I've taken out the radar in the south of England and I see the RAF reacting much slower....they don't seem to know where to go until the LW nearly go feet dry on the UK...then they scramble towards the incoming...as if the OC are doing the spotting instead of radar.

One thing I noticed last night and wondered about...I sent a fighter sweep through the big gap I made in the radar...the AI didn't launch a single plane...not one. Whilst it's true they preferred to stay away from fighters only, I was surprised there weren't ven any launches.

As an example, if I set a bombing raid for 6am...by the time the raid is taking off, there are generally fighters kicking about waiting in the gaps in the radar...but the one time I send a fighter sweep...there was nothing. If the launch of RAF AI aircraft is down to radio traffic, shouldn't the RAF have at least sent up flyers as normal and parhaps not engaged when the OC discovered they were fighters?

It just seemed odd...as if the AI knew my raid was a fighter sweep.

[Dobey455]

Bear in mind that any advantages the AI is given in any game, there is one thing it can't do.....and that's think!

All AI is, at its basic level is conditional reactions, ie :"If THIS, then do THAT else do OTHER" so it will never be able to think imaginatively and dynamically like a human.
And bluff and trickery is difficulty to program in aswell. Ultimately AI cheats are supposed to "play balance" this fact and try to add a little challenge. But I do agree that for many people (myself included) AI cheats just detract from the game....teleporting units, for example, destroy the immersion as much as add to the challenge.

[Hard Sarge]

well for one, I think Gary is the master of making a program that is "only" reacting, look like it is thinking/planning what it is doing

but, will admit, once you figure out how it is reacting, the easier it is then to beat it

[Richard III]

Agreed, he certainly does that like no else can. His War In Russia and the first PacWar are remarkable simulations

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well for one, I think Gary is the master of making a program that is "only" reacting, look like it is thinking/planning what it is doing

but, will admit, once you figure out how it is reacting, the easier it is then to beat it

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller
the AI totally cheats in War in the Pacific AE (teleporting convoys, massive production advantages, god eye intelligence, etc). All that AI cheating has turned me off from purchasing WITP AE.

Too bad to hear that, as the WITP AI does not cheat except where necessary to make the improved AI work. The points you mention are exaggerated, from what I know, but each contain some truth. Players want a good AI, but when it does too well and they find it has an advantage of some kind (which hardly makes up for the lack of a real "brain" and years of wargaming experience) they assume the worst. My guess is that you've also played any number of other games with AIs with some cheats that you simply never noticed.

In any case, it sounds like EDBTR will be more up your alley.

Regards,

- Erik

[Mobeer]

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller

Hi all. Enjoying this game a lot. Brings back old memories. But I have a question. Does the AI in EDBTR cheat with production numbers, intelligence, etc? The reason I ask is because from what I have read, the AI totally cheats in War in the Pacific AE (teleporting convoys, massive production advantages, god eye intelligence, etc). All that AI cheating has turned me off from purchasing WITP AE. I am really hoping there is no AI cheating going on in EDBTR.

I know exactly how you feel. I was sceptical at first that the AI was going to be improved at all, then convinced it would be better, but now seeing threads like that below I think I will be skipping Admirals Edition as well.
tm.asp?m=2254776

Since the old Battle of Britain won't work for me any more, this game is going to be my next buy.

[Time Traveller]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller
the AI totally cheats in War in the Pacific AE (teleporting convoys, massive production advantages, god eye intelligence, etc). All that AI cheating has turned me off from purchasing WITP AE.

Too bad to hear that, as the WITP AI does not cheat except where necessary to make the improved AI work. The points you mention are exaggerated, from what I know, but each contain some truth. Players want a good AI, but when it does too well and they find it has an advantage of some kind (which hardly makes up for the lack of a real "brain" and years of wargaming experience) they assume the worst. My guess is that you've also played any number of other games with AIs with some cheats that you simply never noticed.

In any case, it sounds like EDBTR will be more up your alley.

Regards,

- Erik

WITP AE AI cheating is exaggerated? I don't think so. I know WITP AE is Matrix's flagship game, but I have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. Let me quote some posts below:

I can tell you what the response will be:

You wanted a harder AI, we gave you a harder AI.

We asked for a more challenging experience against the AI, and they delivered. Yes it comes by way of blatant AI cheating in many, many ways - but, thta makes up for all those unescorted TF's you sink with your surface ships. I have been making a mental list of all the 'cheats' that the AI is using, and the list is quite long by now. And by 'cheat', I mean having the ability to do something that a human player can not - such as the unlimited planes or the ability to have instant 100 planning points for anywhere on the map, or having no restrictions on restricted troops (was a hoot to see a division from Kwatung show up in Noumea! ) and so on.

*BUT*, they do not get full experienced pilots for free. All the planes in the world mean nothing is they are being flown by someone with 35 skill.

That I have been able to find out so far (and none of these have been confirmed by the devs):

1. Unlimited torpedo sorties from Carriers.
2. Unlimited aircraft production (for Allies also).
3. Instant 100 planning points for any target.
4. Absolutely no restriction on being able to move around troops (ie. any unit can be loaded and shipped across the Pacific regardless of its HQ).
5. Even on normal settings, the Japanese AI gets huge bonus's to production. For instance, my game is half way through February 1942 as the Allies. Japan has lost about two or three hundred AK's to surface raiders - mostly PT's and DD/CL combos. When I load up their game, they have almost no ships shipping resources to mainland Japan. However, they have three bases in mainland Japan with 999,999 resources, and all the others have well over about 500,000 resources. Again, this is on 'Historical' difficulty setting.
6. They can launch Betty/Nell torpedo sorties from just about any airfield (though this will be addressed in the next patch).
7. I dont know whether you want to call it a cheat, but the AI instantly knows when there is adequate CAP over a target. They will pound, say, Darwin relentlessly with their 2E bombers but the instant you move fighters there, it stops. And I mean the instant. They may start coming back, but usually it wont be until they have fighters or for some time.

tm.asp?m=2254776

The WITP AE human player should have been given a choice for allowing how much the AI is allowed to cheat and what bonuses are allowed. But apparently even on historical or normal settings, the AI cheats very badly. All that AI cheating and bonuses might be good for giving the hardcore WITP AE player a good challenge, but at the extreme cost of butchering historical accuracy and realism. Teleporting ships? Practically unlimited resources and aircraft replacements? Fog of war for the player but not the AI? All this in the name of more challenging game play? No thank you.

[JudgeDredd]

I'm for gameplay over historical accuracy personally. I use books and documentaries for historical lessons [:D] - I DO NOT want historical outcomes in my gaming

[Hard Sarge]

not to be a pain, but maybe you should bring that up on the WitP:AE boards ?

from what I know, our AI does not get any cheats, I am very much against AI cheats

that said, sometimes the AI needs some help, not sure if that is the same as cheating

but from what I know, the AI does not get better bombs, better bomb sites, better guns, better attack systems, replacement rates, or repair rates, it does not know things, that it shouldn't know, the AI has to use Recon to find out info, just like the player does

do think the AI can move stuff, and it is ready to act once moved, but that worked for both sides if the AI did the moving, so don't think that is a true cheat, just how it does things

(of course over time, the movement of player own stuff has been taken away from the AI, so it don't help the player much any more)

[Time Traveller]

Hard Sarge, I really appreciate you guys not including such blatant cheating in EDBTR. As far as bringing up the AI cheating issue in the WITP AE forum, it has already been mentioned in multiple threads. The WITP AE developers are fully aware of the complaints, but seem to be ignoring them. Oh well. [&:]

Anyways, I won't waste any more time talking about WITP AE in this forum. [:D]

[Erik Rutins]

Time Traveller,

You are jumping to conclusions. Player assumptions about cheating are not the same as developer confirmation. One of our policies has been to investigate player reports but not confirm or deny what the AI does because we don't want folks figuring out how to "game" it.

With that said, while some of the cheats do exist, most of the reports I've seen are either incorrect assumptions or significant exaggerations or bugs. Making further assumptions from the sidelines (you don't have WITP AE and have not played it, as I understand it) may be an entertaining pastime for you, but it's not appreciated, especially when you start posting it to other forums as well. Please keep your discussion on the WITP AE AI in the AE forum and until you've played it, please avoid assuming that you know how it works. Feel free to ask questions and comment, but please don't jump to conclusions.

As a side note, you may be shocked to realize that AI is not really "Artificial Intelligence" and the vast majority of games do require some crutches for the AI to have any hope of keeping up with a human player. Unlike WITP, most of these do not allow you to "switch sides" and peek to see what the AI is doing, so the crutches go unnoticed. Even so, the AE AI is much improved from a planning and execution standpoint, without any cheat assistance, over the original WITP AI.

Regards,

- Erik

[Time Traveller]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Time Traveller,

You are jumping to conclusions. Player assumptions about cheating are not the same as developer confirmation. One of our policies has been to investigate player reports but not confirm or deny what the AI does because we don't want folks figuring out how to "game" it.

With that said, while some of the cheats do exist, most of the reports I've seen are either incorrect assumptions or significant exaggerations or bugs. Making further assumptions from the sidelines (you don't have WITP AE and have not played it, as I understand it) may be an entertaining pastime for you, but it's not appreciated, especially when you start posting it to other forums as well. Please keep your discussion on the WITP AE AI in the AE forum and until you've played it, please avoid assuming that you know how it works. Feel free to ask questions and comment, but please don't jump to conclusions.

As a side note, you may be shocked to realize that AI is not really "Artificial Intelligence" and the vast majority of games do require some crutches for the AI to have any hope of keeping up with a human player. Unlike WITP, most of these do not allow you to "switch sides" and peek to see what the AI is doing, so the crutches go unnoticed. Even so, the AE AI is much improved from a planning and execution standpoint, without any cheat assistance, over the original WITP AI.

Regards,

- Erik

There are many player assumptions about the cheating AI in WITP AE based on many far-out stats, and other things in-game for that exact reason- the developers of AE refuse to confirm or deny much about AI cheating and bonuses. Anyways, I saw your post in the other thread and replied. No sense in me making the same reply here. [:)]

[DuckofTindalos]

Every "point" you've made about AE (and why are you making them in a whole different forum, BTW?) can be proven false. Just stop it already; nobody's buying.

[harley]

BTR doesn't cheat, case closed.