is this a joke?

[bo]

I went back on a lot of posts and one question was how to get pp's from Germany to Italy and the answer was use F11 and just transfer them to Italy huh! I tried it and boy did it work well and then I just started adding pp's to Italy first 300 than 500 and viola I was able to take on the USA[&:]with all the units [:-]I could buy by cheating, what goes on here has this been corrected and how do you players find these things?[f11] In my humble opinion this has to be eliminated from this game or am I dreaming about this. Or maybe this is one of those cheats the game programmers slip into their games. HELP!

Bo

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: bo

I went back on a lot of posts and one question was how to get pp's from Germany to Italy and the answer was use F11 and just transfer them to Italy huh! I tried it and boy did it work well and then I just started adding pp's to Italy first 300 than 500 and viola I was able to take on the USA[&:]with all the units [:-]I could buy by cheating, what goes on here has this been corrected and how do you players find these things?[f11] In my humble opinion this has to be eliminated from this game or am I dreaming about this. Or maybe this is one of those cheats the game programmers slip into their games. HELP!

Bo

I think it is a good tool. Question, do you just give Italy 300pp? If I give Italy or any minor axis PP. I subtract it from my German PP. Once at the start of a game, I gave USSR 10,000pp just to see what the AI would do. It attacked Romania in July and Germany at the same time. Very short game for me.

[Tomokatu]

bo, it's a developer's tool used to test various options, to change a nation's control from AI to human at any point of a turn to add or subtract PPs to trigger events, for example. Left in during patching and development work because WWII:ToW is still in development.

Yes, it can be used to cheat but used responsibly by honest players it's a valuable tool in a couple of ways.

You may have noticed a thread which pointed out that there's no way to transfer PPs between allies without using a convoy system. There's no inbuilt game mechanism representing road and rail resource transfers. The F11 key is used for that in pbem games with an attrition penalty like this. As Germany, I want to transfer 100 PPs to my ally Bulgaria. I can't do that by convoy. I SHOULD be able to do it by road &rail since there's a clear path between the Major Supply Centres with no obstructing enemy ZoCs. My opponent and I have agreed on the "house rules" for our game which apply a 5% attrition for spoilage, piulferage and/or enemy action. I use the key to deduct 100 PP from German bank and add 95 PPs to Bulgarian banks. Just like EFT, really.

We also have an agreed "house rule" about using the key for diplomatic changes. Meh! It'll be simpler if I just publish the set of house rules and I'll attach them at the end.

However, the point is, if you want to cheat in a solo game, go right ahead.
If you want to cheat in a pbem game, then you're going to find few willing opponents.
Between nations, there is no trust.
Between gamers, there must be. (Feel free to quote me on that.)

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

bo, it's a developer's tool used to test various options, to change a nation's control from AI to human at any point of a turn to add or subtract PPs to trigger events, for example. Left in during patching and development work because WWII:ToW is still in development.

Yes, it can be used to cheat but used responsibly by honest players it's a valuable tool in a couple of ways.

You may have noticed a thread which pointed out that there's no way to transfer PPs between allies without using a convoy system. There's no inbuilt game mechanism representing road and rail resource transfers. The F11 key is used for that in pbem games with an attrition penalty like this. As Germany, I want to transfer 100 PPs to my ally Bulgaria. I can't do that by convoy. I SHOULD be able to do it by road &rail since there's a clear path between the Major Supply Centres with no obstructing enemy ZoCs. My opponent and I have agreed on the "house rules" for our game which apply a 5% attrition for spoilage, piulferage and/or enemy action. I use the key to deduct 100 PP from German bank and add 95 PPs to Bulgarian banks. Just like EFT, really.

We also have an agreed "house rule" about using the key for diplomatic changes. Meh! It'll be simpler if I just publish the set of house rules and I'll attach them at the end.

However, the point is, if you want to cheat in a solo game, go right ahead.
If you want to cheat in a pbem game, then you're going to find few willing opponents.
Between nations, there is no trust.
Between gamers, there must be. (Feel free to quote me on that.)

well said and well done[:'(]

[Bleck]

bo, you can also edit a lot of county/unit parameters in saved game... Should we also remove this possibility? If someone wants to cheat he will always find a way.

[micheljq]

I like the F11 key because it allows me to take control of a country in game when soloing. For example, I play Commonwealth in solo, when Germany did invade Netherlands and Belgium, I did use F11 to take control of them to make a better defense. I agree that using F11 in multiplayer is unfair.

Sending unlimited PP to another country should be used only by developers.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

bo, it's a developer's tool used to test various options, to change a nation's control from AI to human at any point of a turn to add or subtract PPs to trigger events, for example. Left in during patching and development work because WWII:ToW is still in development.

Yes, it can be used to cheat but used responsibly by honest players it's a valuable tool in a couple of ways.

You may have noticed a thread which pointed out that there's no way to transfer PPs between allies without using a convoy system. There's no inbuilt game mechanism representing road and rail resource transfers. The F11 key is used for that in pbem games with an attrition penalty like this. As Germany, I want to transfer 100 PPs to my ally Bulgaria. I can't do that by convoy. I SHOULD be able to do it by road &rail since there's a clear path between the Major Supply Centres with no obstructing enemy ZoCs. My opponent and I have agreed on the "house rules" for our game which apply a 5% attrition for spoilage, piulferage and/or enemy action. I use the key to deduct 100 PP from German bank and add 95 PPs to Bulgarian banks. Just like EFT, really.

We also have an agreed "house rule" about using the key for diplomatic changes. Meh! It'll be simpler if I just publish the set of house rules and I'll attach them at the end.

However, the point is, if you want to cheat in a solo game, go right ahead.
If you want to cheat in a pbem game, then you're going to find few willing opponents.
Between nations, there is no trust.
Between gamers, there must be. (Feel free to quote me on that.)

Hey Tom as always you are right on thank you, I agree with everything you have said above, when I came across this last night I was sorta perplexed by it. It seemed to me it was like a built in cheat like in COD2 you know to get to the next map etc. Having said that I feel that if you have programmed that a unit can only move so many hex's and thats it, and all the other programmed rules in the game why cant you have a very simple rule like Germany gives Italy 50 mp's, Italy can only receive 50mp's and no more under any conditions, instead of having the way it is now where you can erase it and put in anything you want, I am not saying anyone here would do that, but you should not dangle a carrot in front of the hare.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

I like the F11 key because it allows me to take control of a country in game when soloing. For example, I play Commonwealth in solo, when Germany did invade Netherlands and Belgium, I did use F11 to take control of them to make a better defense. I agree that using F11 in multiplayer is unfair.

Sending unlimited PP to another country should be used only by developers.

Hey Mike I am not against the f11 key it is very valuable to the game in progress it was a stunner for me to see how it could be used though.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Bleck

bo, you can also edit a lot of county/unit parameters in saved game... Should we also remove this possibility? If someone wants to cheat he will always find a way.

Actually Bleck it was just something I came across accidently not making a big deal out of it, I got the answers I wanted, you know there is just something here I cant put my finger on between you gentlemen from Poland and us guys here[USA]. You understand english all right and you read english good but there is a slight gap how you take what we mean sometimes. Maybe its my fault and for that I apoligize, you said should we remove this possibility, and I say of course not now that I understand a little more about the f11 key. You make it read like I am challenging your control over the game and reading something sinister into it instead of it being just an innocent question.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

ORIGINAL: bo

I went back on a lot of posts and one question was how to get pp's from Germany to Italy and the answer was use F11 and just transfer them to Italy huh! I tried it and boy did it work well and then I just started adding pp's to Italy first 300 than 500 and viola I was able to take on the USA[&:]with all the units [:-]I could buy by cheating, what goes on here has this been corrected and how do you players find these things?[f11] In my humble opinion this has to be eliminated from this game or am I dreaming about this. Or maybe this is one of those cheats the game programmers slip into their games. HELP!

Bo

I think it is a good tool. Question, do you just give Italy 300pp? If I give Italy or any minor axis PP. I subtract it from my German PP. Once at the start of a game, I gave USSR 10,000pp just to see what the AI would do. It attacked Romania in July and Germany at the same time. Very short game for me.

Hey A&A how are you hows Mark Clark? Now that it has been explained properly to me it does seem like a good tool, I was only joking about Italy and the USA and using a lot of pp's and any game player worth his or her salt would never use this in a game.

Bo

[AH4Ever]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

WWII:ToW is still in development.
There's no inbuilt game mechanism representing road and rail resource transfers.

"House Rules"

The F11 key is used for that in PBEM games with an attrition penalty. As Germany, I want to transfer 100 PPs to my ally Bulgaria. I SHOULD be able to do it by road & rail.

Between nations, there is no trust.
Between gamers, there must be. (Feel free to quote me on that.)

Why not is the Core Program / Engine for this game that limited?

As far as Production Point Transfer - You have no limit, I doubt Bulgaria had the Industrial Capacity to spend 100 Prod Pts. It would make much more sense for a more powerful ally to transfer / gift actual units.

It troubles me that a game that I thought was going to be fantastic is turning out to be just OK.

Even though you did a good job on your "House Rules" I'm not happy that the game is so dependent upon them.

This time you can take me seriously.

[:(]

[balto]

AH4Ever, when this was Road To War, I got shouted down for hating that feature (as Bo is being treated). And I also did not like that the USA could transfer almost unlimited PP via convoys, so I stopped playing and posting. I even stopped a PBEM game because my opponent was doing all kinds of crazy convoy PP shifts from USA to Netherlands, etc.., under the guise of.., oh, they are both neutral. I quit the game and this game's forum.

I just do not get it, if you had two choices. (1) A game with no house rules or trust needed because the game does not allow you to do PP transfers except those restricted by convoy and events (Lend Lease, quantity restrictions, common sense., etc..,) and (2) a game that allows you to do whatever you want. I have no idea why you would pick option #2.

[Tomokatu]

AH4ever enquired:

Why not is the Core Program / Engine for this game that limited?

Not a question I can answer, since I'm not on the design team.[:)]

As far as Production Point Transfer - You have no limit, I doubt Bulgaria had the Industrial Capacity to spend 100 Prod Pts. It would make much more sense for a more powerful ally to transfer / gift actual units.

I suggest that the lack of industrial capacity to use those PPs is exactly the limit you were looking for. That you can't transfer whole units is (probably) a design decision also.

Thank you for your kind words about our house rules. [8D]
One of my major mod achievements ws a complete set of house rules for the Nova "Ace of Aces" simultaneous movement book-based WWI air combat game, including research on dates of introduction of variant aircraft, proportions of those at the front at certain dates - yadda yadda.
One of my careers was in the Public Service; writing, proofreading and reviewing legislation and regulations. I sort of like the work and I'm (was!) good at it.[>:]

[Tomokatu]

axisandallies was kind enough to say:

well said and well done

Thank you.
All compliments gratefully received. Sending cash is nice, too.[:D]

[Tomokatu]

Balto - nobody here is shouting at bo. Sorry that somebody shouted at you.
We may disagree and sometimes argue, but I'd like to think it's at a moderate level and not rancorous.
 
Under the circumstances you outline, I would also have quit that pbem game also AND added a name to my permanent blacklist.
Is there anything more irritating than a dishonest player?  Probably but I can't think of one right now. [1]
 
Why pick this game? For me, it's the same reason I also started with RtV. I want a fairly simple game which covers the whole of the 39-45 War in Europe with a reasonable AI opponent (because I've only ever played against AI before this pbem game I'm in now). I LIKE this one because of its similarity to 3R (which I DID play against human opponents and enjoyed) and lastly because of the active modding community (which is why I enjoyed the Malfador Space Empires - I stayed with version 4-didn't want Version 5 and the Total War community - Shogun, Rome, Mediaeval & Mediaeval II) and the close and continuing involvement of the developers who are listening to the concerns of the players and improving the game as a result.
That's rare and valuable.
 
----------------------------------------------------
[1] [font="trebuchet ms"]Thought of one - nuclear waste. Seriously irritating![/font]

[pzpat]

I like the F11 button. I think that to make the campaign playable you need to be able to coordinate the movements of your allies. It's too bad that you can't conduct attacks using German (for example) and allied units in the same attack. I also think that perhaps the answer might be to add a popup that would inform a PBEM player that another player in his game has accessed F11. That way solo players could have their cake and PBEM cheaters would eat it at the same time.
And as far as giving PP's to other countries, maybe it might be more productive if the minor allies gave their PP's to the major players. The latter seem to be able to use them more efficiently. Just a thought.

[cpdeyoung]

Tomokatu,

Balto said I "was doing all kinds of crazy convoy PP shifts from USA to Netherlands, etc.., under the guise of.., oh, they are both neutral."

I do not read his comments as implying I was dishonest.

Gary Gardner and I had a set of house rules limiting convoys. Gary and I played some good PBEM games using these rules.

Balto was unhappy in a game against me, and quit.

Chuck

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

Balto - nobody here is shouting at bo. Sorry that somebody shouted at you.
We may disagree and sometimes argue, but I'd like to think it's at a moderate level and not rancorous.

Under the circumstances you outline, I would also have quit that pbem game also AND added a name to my permanent blacklist.
Is there anything more irritating than a dishonest player?  Probably but I can't think of one right now. [1]

Why pick this game? For me, it's the same reason I also started with RtV. I want a fairly simple game which covers the whole of the 39-45 War in Europe with a reasonable AI opponent (because I've only ever played against AI before this pbem game I'm in now). I LIKE this one because of its similarity to 3R (which I DID play against human opponents and enjoyed) and lastly because of the active modding community (which is why I enjoyed the Malfador Space Empires - I stayed with version 4-didn't want Version 5 and the Total War community - Shogun, Rome, Mediaeval & Mediaeval II) and the close and continuing involvement of the developers who are listening to the concerns of the players and improving the game as a result.
That's rare and valuable.

----------------------------------------------------
[1] [font="trebuchet ms"]Thought of one - nuclear waste. Seriously irritating![/font]

Yes this game is simple, but fun. Never the same game twice.

[cpdeyoung]

Just to clarify, I never have, and never would never use F11 to add or move PP in a PBEM game unless it were allowed by house rule.

If you look at my Soviet AARs you will see that I used F11 to pump up the Axis when it appeared the AI did not have a chance. This is rather cool when you need to zip up the AI a bit to get a better game. I think it has its purpose, but if it were removed it would not bother me. As has been pointed out the text files are open, and moddable, as many here depend on. There have been discussions of "armoring" the files for PBEM, but we are a friendly community and it has never seemed necessary.

F11 can get one out of a rough spot as happened recently when the air units got stranded on Rhodes. It has its place, but, of course, should never be abused.

Chuck

[bo]

ORIGINAL: balto

AH4Ever, when this was Road To War, I got shouted down for hating that feature (as Bo is being treated). And I also did not like that the USA could transfer almost unlimited PP via convoys, so I stopped playing and posting. I even stopped a PBEM game because my opponent was doing all kinds of crazy convoy PP shifts from USA to Netherlands, etc.., under the guise of.., oh, they are both neutral. I quit the game and this game's forum.

I just do not get it, if you had two choices. (1) A game with no house rules or trust needed because the game does not allow you to do PP transfers except those restricted by convoy and events (Lend Lease, quantity restrictions, common sense., etc..,) and (2) a game that allows you to do whatever you want. I have no idea why you would pick option #2.

Sorry to hear you stopped posting hoping to see you back Balto. I really feel I was not shouted down and if I thought I was believe me you would hear this mouth roaring. If everyone is sincere in their opinions sometimes it can get a little hectic but I feel most people dont really want to hurt another posters feelings on purpose, some [very few, not a dig] like you to know they know more than everybody else, and guess what thats good because thats how I learn from people who know more than me! [quite a lot of posters] Even though Tomokatu gave good reasons for this F11 add on I still feel uncomfortable with it because it takes away the convoy transport of pp's to another country, why risk pp's to a convoy that can be destroyed when all you have to do is push F11 and walla!

Bo