ALLIED ONLY: aztez (A) vs erstad (J) ...2nd ROUND

[Yamato_Blitzer]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

This is general truth of war - the attacker is always in better position than defender, because he chooses time and place where he will concentrate his punch. Defender could only react. Of cource if defender has nice intel he can set up a trap or try to wear out attacker, such was at Midway or at Kursk.

I think you are too caution with your CV's, you need try to gamble. And as I can see your use of subs is almost fruitseless, or I am wrong ?

Nope, I disagree here. If you have lost two carriers then you can not afford to gamble. It is the first rule of poker. You never gamble more then you can afford to lose and here it is your remaining carriers.

I would look to use your carriers wherever KB is not. Kill as many cheap merchies as you can. It will pay you in spades later.

I agree with this. It's not a fair gamble at all. It's an unnecessary gamble too.

Time isn't that much of a problem here. If it was then yea, he would have no choice but to toss the dice. It isn't worth it to risk almost certain death of 2 CV's. Even if he did win tactically I don't think it would achieve much in the strategic short run (which is the most decisive factor right now imo), he would most certainly lose at least 1 CV and It would prolly be a carrier trade, if not maybe 2 Japanese carriers for 1 Allied carrier, if he got lucky and the Japanese could keep advancing anyways, so it would achieve nothing, unless he got really lucky and traded 1 allied cv for 2 jap ones. Better to mass up and strike later. No need to run in there right now in a panick.


This is just my two cents.

[seydlitz_slith]

I have been giving a lot of thought to Dave's advance and where you could actually shake him up and get away with it.

The answer is here.....

[seydlitz_slith]

I would land a force at Chi Chi Jima and Haha Jima in the Bonins. Chichi has a small (6 AV) base force and fortress unit (but no fort levels). Haha is undefended. Chich is a level 2 AF and Haha Lvl 1. These islands are the natural ferry bridge for planes heading to Rabaul and lie across the shipping lanes for shipping going to Truk. It is within Betty range of Honshu, but my guess is that his Betties are much farther south, as are most of his naval forces.

In AE, tasks forces are normally not spotted if they are over 12 hexes from the spotting unit. It is possible to do a run in to these islands while staying over 12 hexes from Honshu and also staying north of Wake and Marcus. If you loaded two landing forces on the west coast to include base forces, you could land, capture both islands and immediately establish an air presence since both have airfields. A unit of Catalinas flying from there would spot most of his traffic and a unit of medium bombers would threaten his shipping too far out for him to LRCAP.

He would have no choice but to pull in considerable forces to address the threat and it would upset his applecart by forcing him to divert forces from the perimeter back close to home.

If you load and move to an open water hex in the north or central pacific and hold on station until he uses his carriers somewhere down south then you can do this without needing to risk your carriers and give him that "uh oh" moment when he realizes that his carriers and other good units are too far south to do anything.

Even after he kicks you out, which could take a while depending on how far he has to bring forces and what you put on the island (note-island, not atoll), then he will forever be paranoid and will tie up forces there and in other places to keep this from happening again. It is the witp equivalent of the Doolittle Raid. The Japanese player's heart skips a beat as he realizes how vulnerable his perimeter is in this area. Two thoughts immediately go through his mind. 1. Your B-17s can bomb Tokyo from there (not that you would with only a lvl 2 AF, but Catalinas flying at night can have regular fun) and 2. The enemy now controls a significant base that exposes all of his sea movements towards his base at Truk and southern areas below. He will then realize that to get planes to Truk he has to ferry them to Takao, the Philippines, Palau, and then east. Same with his shipping. He would have to send everything west and down around Takao.

This makes good hunting for your subs. Around the islands initially and enjoying catalina spotters then later when we reroutes shipping to the area around Takao.

I guarantee that you would get some satisfaction out this simply from the shake up factor that you would inflict.

Here is what Chichi looks like at game start. I have never seen a Japanese player do anything to reinforce this area before 1943 at all.

[offenseman]

That would be a gutsy move and I like it.  Remind me to watch out for the rear areas if we even play against each other.  

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: aztez



How is possible? Here are few views that you can agree or disagree. These are from allied perspective.

1. The nerfed allied fighter production. This is really bad since you do not have much. At the moment I have 3 operational US carriers and if I commit them into battle and we draw than that is an japanese victory since the depleted pools mean that those carriers are out of operations for months. ie. You cannot protect china if japanese bring in extra aircover etc, etc.

No question,

2. The ground combat with treats low experienced troops as ants. The best thing to do is to get out of the way with these troops thus meaning that run and hide until 1943 enters. There are plenty of good examples in this thread already. I have read the same kind of results in other threads too.

I love this game but the China aspect is a joke. The troops are nothing more than dead meat, anywhere the steamroller wants to drive it goes. Level 3, level four forts mean little but a 2 day delay before the troops get routed. If it weren't for some success with the AVG I'd just as soon march the troops into the South China Sea and save myself hours upon hours of work aweek just to see the same result as if I did nothing at all.

I laugh at all the PPs I've wasted in China on the best leaders for the respective units. meaningless waste of PPs.

I believe the main culprit behind this is the paltry force required for the Manchuko Garrison before the Soviets gets activated. Once the japanese bring in Armor and the big guns from Manchucko, game over for the chinese peasants. Some japanese fanboy on the beta team must have been lobbying hard for the low garrison requirements because in every game this isn't even close to historically correct.
.

[cfulbright]

Seydlitz - You beat me to the punch line. I've been thinking that no one pursues the North Pacific Theater. What you are proposing in the Bonin Islands is essentially that. You also could hit some of his Kurile Island bases on the way in and out.

Good luck.

[LoBaron]

Wow seydlitz. Bold move. And it really could disrupt/delay his plans.

a few problems that i notice while thinking about it:

- its close to Japan and the Philipines, reaction time maybe 3 days for warships
if he got a strategical reserve and very easy to bring a substantial ammount of planes in from
both places (at least zeros which have the legs to do it)

- Aztez would have to avoid detection from both Marcus Islands and Japan, even maybe from Saipan
i would have at least 1 Mavis/Emily Unit on the small islands and at least 2 LR Patrol formations on the mainland.

if these pick his fleet up chances are that he got more than 3 days reaction time. and as Japan i would react very aggressive
to a fleet on western heading towards my flank. might ruin my timeplan but id at leasr feel confident with an early deciding battle,
even if i do it on the invasions return leg.

Very interesting plan though and a success could change the situation quite a bit.

btw i hope thats no recent map from your own AAR...could be BMatch is watching this AAR, at least i would.

[Sardaukar]

Nice one with those islands. They are classed as Small islands in manual appending and can hold 30 000 troops without penalties. Supplying them would be painful, though. 

[Swenslim]

Ha ! Now in my games I will put more air search units at Marcus, Bonins and Kuril Is, and maybe have 1 CV and 1 CVE at Kobe

[Fishbed]

I am very enthusiastic about such an ops too. But I can only share the very right comments I have seen so far. To me, such an operation should be led by a very fast transport force (APDs) covered with limited surface assets, for the losses wouldn't outweight the gains. The best configuration to me is something that will hit him the most while costing you the less, of course. They have to get there, land everyone in a day and a half, and leave, leave, if they don't get spotted on the way in. Any operation there will be a one-way ticket for the troops, so we have to choose them carefully keeping this in mind.

It would even give you some time to invest Marcus Island too (which, if you can keep it, may very well become a hell of a thorn with the needed long-range assets)

[skrewball]

That's a good idea on taking those islands! Remember you don't need to keep them, just give the illusion that you want them. Make him think they are valuable to you! You may not even need in really invade. Just spend enough time bombarding to make him think you want to invade. He'll have to pull ships and supplies from other areas to counter your "invasion". Raids were developed to boost Morale. That's what you need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makin_Raid

Do any of those Northern Japanese outposts have Resources/Oil/HI? A quick carrier raid would cost him supplies in repair. Not to mention he would have to base and upgrade defense fighters to keep you from coming back.

In one of my old WITP games, I built a massive bombardment fleet and sailed to Wake undetected. I bombarded wake for 3 days and withdrew. My opponent was sure of an invasion and sat the KB just out of range for the next week. After we ended the game he asked me what happened to the Wake invasion force...I just told him that "It would have arrived eventually" [:D]

[Swenslim]

But neveretheless this operation would be kamikaze act by americans, so I dont like the idea. All troops will be destroyed in 1-2 weeks with minimal to Japan losses.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Wow seydlitz. Bold move. And it really could disrupt/delay his plans.

a few problems that i notice while thinking about it:

- its close to Japan and the Philipines, reaction time maybe 3 days for warships
if he got a strategical reserve and very easy to bring a substantial ammount of planes in from
both places (at least zeros which have the legs to do it)

- Aztez would have to avoid detection from both Marcus Islands and Japan, even maybe from Saipan
i would have at least 1 Mavis/Emily Unit on the small islands and at least 2 LR Patrol formations on the mainland.

if these pick his fleet up chances are that he got more than 3 days reaction time. and as Japan i would react very aggressive
to a fleet on western heading towards my flank. might ruin my timeplan but id at leasr feel confident with an early deciding battle,
even if i do it on the invasions return leg.

Very interesting plan though and a success could change the situation quite a bit.

btw i hope thats no recent map from your own AAR...could be BMatch is watching this AAR, at least i would.

No worry, the map isn't from my current game. I loaded up a fresh game to take the snaps.

Some secrets from the dark side are as follows (and these are typical of just about all Japanese players):

1. Reaction from Japan would be minimal at first. Odds are that Dave has ALL of his Nell and Betty units down south near the edge of his advances where he can use them to troll for enemy shipping and also to watch for the enemy advance. Even if some were in Japan, he would also have to have zeroes with drop tanks available to escort them. This would be a situation akin to what the allies saw when they first landed at Guadalcanal and the Japanese had to scramble forces from Rabaul, Kavieng, and Truk.

2. Naval reaction would be violent, just like it is should be. However, if you hold in an open hex outside of 12 hexes and wait until his carriers turn up elsewhere, you can pretty much guarantee that you can get in, land, unload enough gear, supplies, and troops, and run your transports back out before the carriers get there. Depending on how far away the KB is, Dave may even have to refuel first and would be steaming at full speed to get there, damaging his ships. The strongest initial naval reaction would be out of Truk with any warships there as any warships in the home islands at this point would usually be new arrivals, ships being repaired, and ships being upgraded. In a prior stock game, I did the same trick at Hakodate. The reaction was violent. I had to fight a couple of cruisers that were at the home islands on day 3 and then the KB on day 8. In that game I chose to slug it out and lost my carriers but so did Japan and I damaged his navy so bad that expansion was pretty much over for Japan.

There are many things that you can do in setting the trap, including dropping mines in the hexes to hit him when he lands as well as concentrating your subs around the islands to bag his ships.

Biggest risk is an ASW air unit based there to spot subs spotting you the day before you arrive, but that is an acceptable risk.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: skrewball

That's a good idea on taking those islands! Remember you don't need to keep them, just give the illusion that you want them. Make him think they are valuable to you! You may not even need in really invade. Just spend enough time bombarding to make him think you want to invade. He'll have to pull ships and supplies from other areas to counter your "invasion". Raids were developed to boost Morale. That's what you need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makin_Raid

Do any of those Northern Japanese outposts have Resources/Oil/HI? A quick carrier raid would cost him supplies in repair. Not to mention he would have to base and upgrade defense fighters to keep you from coming back.

In one of my old WITP games, I built a massive bombardment fleet and sailed to Wake undetected. I bombarded wake for 3 days and withdrew. My opponent was sure of an invasion and sat the KB just out of range for the next week. After we ended the game he asked me what happened to the Wake invasion force...I just told him that "It would have arrived eventually" [:D]

Shikuka, the Japanese city on the southern end of Sakhalin Island is an oil center. It is also lightly defended and you could pull the same trick there, but since it is in the cold zone you run extra system damage to your ships and you will have unpredictible flying weather which could really hurt if weather grounds your planes at a critical moment.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

But neveretheless this operation would be kamikaze act by americans, so I dont like the idea. All troops will be destroyed in 1-2 weeks with minimal to Japan losses.

You have to view this as a long term raid, not a permanent act of occupation. I put the survival at one to two months and even then Japan has to pull units from elsewhere that delay his operating tempo.

[bklooste]

I agree with seydlitz here the most effective Japanese players empty the home islands ( relatively) historically this was not possible due to the risk of enemy action but few players are brave enough.

Especially some fast armoured units could smash airfields as well.

It will attract significant Japanese forces including KB so it would be an excellent diversion for a major counterstrike.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz
No worry, the map isn't from my current game. I loaded up a fresh game to take the snaps.

Some secrets from the dark side are as follows (and these are typical of just about all Japanese players):

1. Reaction from Japan would be minimal at first. Odds are that Dave has ALL of his Nell and Betty units down south near the edge of his advances where he can use them to troll for enemy shipping and also to watch for the enemy advance. Even if some were in Japan, he would also have to have zeroes with drop tanks available to escort them. This would be a situation akin to what the allies saw when they first landed at Guadalcanal and the Japanese had to scramble forces from Rabaul, Kavieng, and Truk.

2. Naval reaction would be violent, just like it is should be. However, if you hold in an open hex outside of 12 hexes and wait until his carriers turn up elsewhere, you can pretty much guarantee that you can get in, land, unload enough gear, supplies, and troops, and run your transports back out before the carriers get there. Depending on how far away the KB is, Dave may even have to refuel first and would be steaming at full speed to get there, damaging his ships. The strongest initial naval reaction would be out of Truk with any warships there as any warships in the home islands at this point would usually be new arrivals, ships being repaired, and ships being upgraded. In a prior stock game, I did the same trick at Hakodate. The reaction was violent. I had to fight a couple of cruisers that were at the home islands on day 3 and then the KB on day 8. In that game I chose to slug it out and lost my carriers but so did Japan and I damaged his navy so bad that expansion was pretty much over for Japan.

There are many things that you can do in setting the trap, including dropping mines in the hexes to hit him when he lands as well as concentrating your subs around the islands to bag his ships.

Biggest risk is an ASW air unit based there to spot subs spotting you the day before you arrive, but that is an acceptable risk.

@1: You got a point there though i was more referring to a situation where he reacts to the TF sighting and not to the actual landing.
in this case he could already have a number of planes transferred there before the invasion TF´s are even close.
this could lead to a scenario similar to the "unsinkable carrier" scenario we discussed earlier in the Fiji situation.

@2: I am just digging into my first experiences with AE so i cant support my argument with hard facts and you outexperience me by far on such a topic
but isnt 12 hexes (or even more) a distance that is easily covered by a couple of Mavis/Emily patrols?

maybe i tend to be a bit paranoid but in a game that relies as heavily as this one on intel and half known recon data
id be 100% awake the moment i spot anything close to an bigger fleet thats moving to my flank and we all know that
japan tends to be weak on its eastern front as far as defensive capabiklity is concerned.

last not least i think this is a great idea but very risky depending on the opponent and im just trying to play devils advocate this time. [:)]

[Rob Brennan UK]

The only problematic thing is the movement of lba aircraft on future operations. It is an tricky business and can cause some real problems. I have already think about this even if we are on the defensive stance now.

Thats what your CVE's are for .. P40/P38 etc .. no range , no matter fly em off a CVE and bingo all ready for use. Lets face it the air components on CVE's are usually poorly trained and you can always swop the fighters for a DB group on a main line CV so your CAP isnt affected at all.

Fiji actually makes a good base for the S class boats. non dud torps could easily ruin his day as no major ports anywhere close by.

WOW seydlitz , you don't mess about do you [&o]. thats a v bold and ballsy plan there. Another option might be to invade the northern kuriles just before winter sets in with a ton of engineers and supply. given the winter invasion penalties you could have them for a full 3 months building forts/airfields etc before having to worry about a counter invasion. and i would seriously doubt japan can afford to waste KB for 3 months in crappy weather conditions stopping reinforcements.

looks like you have a lot of support Aztez /cheer ..

[rattovolante]

Seydlitz's plan is daring, I like it
The main problem it has is that IMO it only works if your opponent allows it by leaving a large area underdefended... but in this case, Japanese expansion was so aggressive that I think likely that the north pacific is underdefended.
BTW you might use it as a feint, he might panic and recall more than he needs to react. What/where are your major naval assets (CVs, BBs, CAs)?

[stldiver]

I wouldn't recommend the operation, as a converted Samurai. Japan has a stream of troops coming thru that need to head out to theatres. I would relish the chance to load them for a base close to Japan and destroy American units there, far from supply lines. I would just divert transports around the islands causing a few days delay, then within a week or two send in the troops and wipe out valuable assets.

This would really not slow down the advance, for the value of lost units and time it took to prepare and get there.