Gustav Line

[mgp104]

Hi all,

I'm playing a '43 BTR game as the Allies vs. German AI, I've reached 25/9/43. Six German ground units have all fallen back to the Gustav line and have been holding it for about ten days, I've tried attacking them but have since tried to cut their supply lines.

My question is: Will attacking the units in the Gustav line consistently cause an earilier than historical breakthrough or, now that the units are in the Gustav line, will it just be a huge waste of aircraft?

Mark

[harley]

tbh I'm not sure - we found a bug that stopped some of the ground troops from being created, and I do not know what it does to a sustained attack on the ones that are there.

It is possible to accelerate the collapse of the line when things work properly, but it does take an enormous effort.

[jtareb]

My experience so far is that ground attacks only work if you keep them going on consecutive turns. Ground units seem to repair much faster than factories. Bombing the rail network helps you with points but seems to have no effect on the ground troops--much like it was in real life back in 43-44.

[Hard Sarge]

you got to cut the supply line to the troops, and once cut, hurt the troops

Level bombers do mainly disruption to the unit, Fighter/Fighter Bombers, kill stuff

it is HARD to break the line, with just airpower, but I was able to do it in Normandy, but you really need everything to go your way

knock out the Factories making AFV and Arty, cut the supply lines, and hammer the troops

you need all 3

[KenchiSulla]

Well, it proved hard for the allies irl as well

[Hard Sarge]

yeap, you got a point there

[KenchiSulla]

The biggest accomplishment of the allied air power in the '44 Normandy campaign was disrupting movement of German reinforcements towards the frontline (by day ofcourse, at night its hard to destroy anything other then huge cities). I also was reading some accounts of heavy bombers attacking german positions. When positions were hit the results were devastating, troops killed by shockwaves, bombblasts and those that survived shellshocked. But more often they would miss the target and just create huge holes in the countryside or kill countless of french citizens (sadly).

[Hard Sarge]

roger

but they did send a lot of Intruder type missions out, to fly over the roads, raillines looking to targets (this would be more after the break out)

the LW did also

[mgp104]

Ok, thanks for your replies.

Now I have some further questions:

When you get an 'Infantry Destroyed' or 'Pzkfw IV Destroyed' message what do the asterisks after the message mean?

Can you break defensive lines in one place or does the whole line either hold or collapse?

Thanks

Mark

[Hard Sarge]

from the old forum, the * are just how well, you killed it (we never figured that one out)

and to be honest, I forget right now

will need to run a test with both sides open to find out again

I have never seen a single line break, speed up the fall, push units out of line, yea, but not totally break it

there is one double line, in Normaday, and from we know, I was the only one to break it (from the old fourm)

so it can be done, but it is a lot of work

[Dobey455]

I've seen others say that it "just denotes the size of the explosion", but I suspect it may actually be a multiple (ie "Infantry Destroyed***" might be 3 Infantry Squads destroyed). I haven't done any testing to see if that's correct or not. I'm pretty sure you see the same thing in messages in WITP as well, so maybe someone from there has an idea.

- Edit Ok, looks like HS was a bit faster than me in replying, and based in what he's said I guess that the asterix is just to represent the "quality of the kill"?

[Misty99]

From the readme file (old BTR):

(7) DAMAGE TO GROUND TROOPS - Various campaigns in the game have
ground troops, and those troops have AFVs and artillery units. During the Reaction Phase,
you will see messages reporting damage to these targets (such as an artillery piece or
AFV destroyed). This loss represents a permanent loss of combat strength for the unit, until
the unit can be refitted with new equipment. The asterisks represent nothing more than the
size of the explosion.

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

roger

but they did send a lot of Intruder type missions out, to fly over the roads, raillines looking to targets (this would be more after the break out)

the LW did also

Just thinkin' ...

What causes "real" disruption to troop units?
Extended periods of good weather... [&o]
A heavily damaged supply line is a must.

1) When troops are in starting positions
Light and medium bombardments are effective, but the units are not doing anything anyways. If you don't continue to bomb them they will recover and be ready to move to the fortified area when the invasion occurs. In truth, most players are going to know the major invasion dates anyways, so begin disrupting troops a couple of weeks before.

2) When troops move to the fortified areas
Right after an invasion, troops will attempt to move to the fortified areas. RECON, strafe, fighter-bomb, light & medium & heavy & RECON again. Repeat! If the real disruption is above 50% --75%? -- the unit will not move or move a very small distance.

3) When troops reach the FIRST "fortified areas" line.
This is the most difficult. Constant heavy bombardments. Even this doesn't keep the disruption high. I found that there is an element of luck that the Army will attack this unit on the day you have the disruption >75%, win the battle, and force the unit to retreat out of the fortified area.

4) When troops retreat to the second fortified areas. After the breakout.
RECON, strafe, fighter-bomb, light & medium & heavy & RECON again. Repeat! Pile it on! Most damage occurs at this time. If the real disruption is above 50% --75%? -- the unit will not move or move a very small distance. Very weak units can be destroyed by attacking army units during this time. They will reappear closer to the homeland.

5) When troops reach the SECOND "fortified" line.
Forget about them, you are about to win the game! [;)]

TS

[mgp104]

Hi,

A little update, I've continued hitting the troops with everything within range and found some success with bringing all raids down to 4800 feet (I find the losses aren't much different from 10000+ feet and the damage caused increases).

However I have got all of the units in the line down to between 226 and 507 combat strength and 30 to 54 percent disruption but I can't seem to do more damage. Have I just hit an equilibrium between the rate at which I can cause damage and the rate that resupply is occurring? I did get one message at the end of the action phase (I mean the phase where damage is repaired etc.) that seemed to be an attempt at a breakthrough but it didn't seem to come off.

With regards the supply line do you need to cause damage all the way along it for maximum effect of will just destroying the nearest half do?

Thanks

Mark

[wernerpruckner]

As long as the ground troops get supply and as long there are reserve AFV and ART left there is nearly no way to break the Gustav line too early....you may be able to advance the breakthrough for up to 30 days....but thats probably all.
Only line that seems to be brakable are the double defensive lines in Normandy....but also only with major bombing offensives against Overlord mandatory, troops, and ARM factories......

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: mgp104

Hi,

A little update, I've continued hitting the troops with everything within range and found some success with bringing all raids down to 4800 feet (I find the losses aren't much different from 10000+ feet and the damage caused increases).

However I have got all of the units in the line down to between 226 and 507 combat strength and 30 to 54 percent disruption but I can't seem to do more damage. Have I just hit an equilibrium between the rate at which I can cause damage and the rate that resupply is occurring? I did get one message at the end of the action phase (I mean the phase where damage is repaired etc.) that seemed to be an attempt at a breakthrough but it didn't seem to come off.

With regards the supply line do you need to cause damage all the way along it for maximum effect of will just destroying the nearest half do?

Thanks

Mark

1) Losses: They are probably not so bad because you have destroyed most of the AAA guns. Watch out, they will get resupplied.
2)Altitude: The game respresents two types of fighter-bombing -- skip and dive -- I can't remember the altitude where one end and the other begins.
3)Damage: Destroying tanks, artillery, infantry will get harder because there is less of them.

3)That message: It was probably an Allied army attack.
When you win the axis unit will retreat. You get a breakthrough when the axis can not reinforce the line. Any nearby axis unit that can move will move to fill the line; so don't forget to keep hammering on the units in the rear, too! You CAN beat the historical date of the breakthrough. Remember the 5th Army moved into Rome on 5 Jun '44!

4)Supply line: Yes. Turn the whole thing dark red, and keep it that way. Once you can get the rail damage to 99%, it is very easy to keep it there with a single fighter squardon/group attack every couple of days.

Good Luck!
TS