Very disappointed

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Shark7
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: USS America

A chess board has a grand total of 64 spaces and 32 units for an AI to consider.  Add even 10 pieces on each side, and you are multiplying the number of AI calculations by a massive amount. 

Now, consider the smallest AE scenario.  How many spaces are there on the board for the Coral Sea scenario?  How many ships are there?  Don't forget the air units, inclucing the air units onboard ships.  There are probably a few more LCU's than the total number of pieces in a game of chess, for the Allies and the Japanese.  Oh, and some of those spaces on the board are very different from others (bases/ports/airfields). 

Deep Blue plays chess by "brute force" calculations of all the possible moves.  I'm 42 years old.  Even if the developers had a thousand systems as powerful as Deep Blue to use, they will never be able to program an AI that can be as effective as a human in my lifetime. 

I am very impressed with the improvements Andy and company have been able to make with the AI in AE. 

Now, I need to go and play a turn for my evil Martian opponent.  I never giggle to myself, picturing the look on my opponent's face as I sneak in an attack where he didn't expect it, when I'm playing the AI.  [:D]

However, my point about no one being able to afford an AI that could play WiTP as smartly as a human is still valid. [:)]

Chess is complex game and you have to play against a truely skilled opponent to appreciate it. The fact that a computer can be built that can (even through brute force) be able to analyze and react to a thinking grand master is quite an accomplishment. Even with all the brute force calculations, the computer still had to make a choice of one right move, in a sense 'out-thinking' it's opponent...maybe not in the conventional human way of thinking, but definately in an analytical manner.

And something I like to quote every now and then (from a book I can no longer remember the title or author of sadly)...

"If brute force doesn't get the job done, you aren't using enough."
Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'
Marty A
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Marty A »

ORIGINAL: oldman45
Anybody ever play a naval game on a basketball court?

I did similar. each side was about 7m apart. i notice tiles on floor were 25cm square. i count squares between me and target and estimate distance in middle of tile. my opening shot called for full broadside. one guy on my team says no shoot 1 to get range. i smile and land 6 12 inchs hits on first shot. no one knew how i did it [:D]
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morganbj
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by morganbj »

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Now that is the way to play a game like this!! I remember the weekend get togethers around a sand table usually micro armor. Once in a while we would set up the ships and slug it out. Anybody ever play a naval game on a basketball court?
Yeah, the old Jutland game. Was it an AH game? I think so.
Occasionally, and randomly, problems and solutions collide. The probability of these collisions is inversely related to the number of committees working on the solutions. -- Me.
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oldman45
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by oldman45 »

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Now that is the way to play a game like this!! I remember the weekend get togethers around a sand table usually micro armor. Once in a while we would set up the ships and slug it out. Anybody ever play a naval game on a basketball court?
Yeah, the old Jutland game. Was it an AH game? I think so.

I don't remember the rule set, I just remember 1/1250 scale ships and really long tape measures [:)]
Mike Scholl
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I don't remember the rule set, I just remember 1/1250 scale ships and really long tape measures [:)]

Either classic "Fletcher Pratt" or some dirivitive of it. Most addictive and frustrating experiances I've ever had. No dice to blame, and your successes and failures are right out in public view. Your ego hasn't really had a beating until you miss your target by several feet in front of 20 other players.
Halsey
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Halsey »

ORIGINAL: oldman45

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Now that is the way to play a game like this!! I remember the weekend get togethers around a sand table usually micro armor. Once in a while we would set up the ships and slug it out. Anybody ever play a naval game on a basketball court?
Yeah, the old Jutland game. Was it an AH game? I think so.

I don't remember the rule set, I just remember 1/1250 scale ships and really long tape measures [:)]


Sea Power... [;)]
Publish by Alnavco , I think.[:D]
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DivePac88
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by DivePac88 »

For some reason somebody would always bring a dog, that would inevitably have a go at the models/counters.
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morganbj
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by morganbj »

A dog?
 
No, for us it was the girls volleyball team who needed to practice.  We were at one end of the court and they decided that that was THEIR end to practice on. (There were two volleyball net configurations, one with the next in the middle, for matches, and another were nets were parallel tothe length of the court so that two nets could be up at the same time, one at either end.  I say that to keep the cumudgeons from saying "It'a lie!  It's a lie!  The net is in the middle of the court.")  So, we moved everything to the other end of the court.  The game slowed down quite a bit as we were distracted by staring at all that perfectly formed booty.
Occasionally, and randomly, problems and solutions collide. The probability of these collisions is inversely related to the number of committees working on the solutions. -- Me.
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Chickenboy
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan
The game slowed down quite a bit as we were distracted by staring at all that perfectly formed booty.
[;)] I assume you refer to the lovingly crafted models of your opponents ships? Definitely worthy of stares of admiration.
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morganbj
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by morganbj »

And the twin gun mounts on some of the vessles?  Not bad.  Not bad at all.  But, that was 40 years ago (actually a little more), so my memory may be exaggerating things a little.
Occasionally, and randomly, problems and solutions collide. The probability of these collisions is inversely related to the number of committees working on the solutions. -- Me.
Halsey
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Halsey »

I went to General Quarters by CHQ later on.

Didn't need a 20' tapemeasure after that.[;)]

Yes, I have a buddy whose dog use to navigate through the models pretty well too.
Just don't throw a ball to play fetch with him.
Gus was a ball psychotic dog.[:D]
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Captain57
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Captain57 »

Been playing WitP forever. Have been greatly enjoying the first 3 days of my AE copy. And then... This thread totally took the wind out of my sales. I play the AI because that's what I like. Am now demoralized about the game and am setting it aside for awhile until I get re-inspired. Very sad.
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Mynok
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Mynok »


Demoralized by what? [&:]
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
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Chickenboy
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Tankist

Been playing WitP forever. Have been greatly enjoying the first 3 days of my AE copy. And then... This thread totally took the wind out of my sales. I play the AI because that's what I like. Am now demoralized about the game and am setting it aside for awhile until I get re-inspired. Very sad.
Tankist,

Don't take it too hard. I think some of the major issues that I encountered were the result of playing on 'very hard' for some time. I think the game will be more manageable after patch II (soon) on historical settings of difficulty. I'll give it another crack then.

Stick with it. If the service and support exhibited by Matrix et. al. in WiTP is any indication, it will get better with a few iterations and tincture of time.
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Mynok
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Mynok »


Yep...I think once everyone understands the ramifications of each AI setting, they'll be able to find the one that satisfies what they are looking for.

Or there's always trying a bit of PBEM....[:'(]
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
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Chickenboy
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Or there's always trying a bit of PBEM....[:'(]
Well, why didn't you say so in the first place? [8|]
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Mynok
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Mynok »


[:D][:D][:D]
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
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Captain57
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Captain57 »

That's good advice. I mean I just love this game but if the AI cheats, then I loose enthusiasm. I'll hang in there. [:'(]
Mike Scholl
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RE: Very disappointed

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Tankist
I mean I just love this game but if the AI cheats, then I loose enthusiasm.

Tankist. The truth is that virtually every "AI" cheats..., or it is just plain lousy. No matter how diligent and clever the programmer, an AI simply can't THINK..., and a human being can.

A good programmer can keep the "cheating" from being obvious..., but if you insist on going with the "very hard" settings, it will show. There just aren't that many ways to make the AI "very hard" without making it's "cheats" obvious.

To get a good competitive game out of the AI, you need to balance your desire for a challenge with it's inherent limitations (and probably place some restrictions on yourself and how "clever" you want to be).

A bunch of "scripting" is simply not going to be able to compete with a few million years of human brain evolution. There is always PBEM..., but if you want to play against the AI, then you will have to give it some of your brain power to help it out. Hope you can work out a balance so you can get back to your game.
Andy Mac
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RE: Very confused

Post by Andy Mac »

Guys I am in a bit of a quandry now - I am forming the opinion that I cannot please anyone on this stuff.

I never played the WITP AI I am a PBEM er through and through but for my sins I was assigned the Ai task on AE.

I researched it and the number 1 complaint was that the Ai didnt give you a good game, it was to easy, it was moronic, it was passive, it never suprised you etc etc

Every thread I went through on the old WITP forum - and there weren't many of them that are that recent because most AI players couldnt play mods or had got fed up of the Ai basically said make it better make it harder let it give us a game.

So thats the goal and target we set ourselves - we promised no worse than stock but defacto tried to make it better.

I am now at a loss what to do. The AI will give you a more enjoyable game I am convinced of that but yes it does get some help - some of it is EXACTLY as it was in stock make no mistake the AI cheated there as well - some of it was added because we identified what the stock AI was bad at and if we couldnt help it out legitimately tried to help it out in other ways.

I am sorry folks are dissapointed but what exactly do you want ? A game that can challenge and excite you without an AI that has some help ? No game that I am aware of can do that especially not one as complex as this

After patch 2 I think I need a break I am going to play some PBEM and enjoy the game and stop reading these kinds of threads because I simply don't get it - I apologise to everyone that doesnt like what the Ai is or how it operates but I have no idea what to say any more
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