AltHist-A: Shall We Try Again?

[Randomizer]

His Imperial Majesty and Emperor of Austria Franz II believes that He has a stake in this Prussian-Polish crisis.

The establishment of Saxon Puppets dancing to strings controlled from Warsaw on Austria's North-West border raises the spectre of Polish encirclement to both Prussia and Austria and cannot be ignored. His Imperial Majesty is of the opinion that at this stage of European relations, Poland's declared protectorate of Saxony is both ill-timed and ill-advised.

Austria has no territorial demands in this crisis either towards Saxony or Poland but does not desire to see Polish incursions into Western Europe.

Therefore Vienna strongly encourages a diplomatic solution to the Saxon Crisis but will support Prussia in those measures such as King Wilhelm requires to ensure the Safety and Security of his realm.

His Imperial Majesty is also saddened by certain bellicose statements from the Czar of All the Russia's in this matter and fears that since Poland's national existance is not questioned in this crisis, such pronouncements serve only to increase tensions. The autonomy of Poland is not the issue here but uncontrolled and destabilizing Polish expansion is.

Austria sees nothing in the Saxon Crisis that should lead to a General War unless Poland wishes to precipitate a conflict.

Franz II
Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and cetera

P.S.
Austria's Turn sent in this AM PDT.

[Marshal Villars]

Posted by Poniatowski, the First Consul of Poland

We are not interested in keeping Saxony because we recognize these concerns and feel that Prussia has a right to a defense in depth. Indeed, we would feel that it would be immoral to keep Saxony, given its close proximity to Berlin.

We merely want Breslau in exchange. An offer which Britain, France, Russia, Turkey, and Poland see as being reasonable.

I will not lay out the legal rationale behind this again--other than to say that Prussia has less business in Saxony than Poland does, legally speaking.

Additionally, it certainly wasn't Poland that was speaking of carving Poland up before all of this began!

-Poniatowski
First Consul of Poland

[Anthropoid]

I find the Austrian comments to be out of line with reality. "Bellicose" statements by Russia?

In July 1792, _PRUSSIA_ made a sneak attack against Saxony-=-a Polish Protectorate. I would post the screen cap of the Political Report, but it is there in your Turn001_ALL for you all to see. This was far more than a "bellicose" statement, it was a grossly uncivilized act of barbarity. And yet, Austria will try to portray the situation as one in which poor Poland is the nation which threatens to "encircle" BOTH Austria and Prussia. That my dear Emperor is laughable.

What is hapening here is an attempt by Prussia and Austria to conquest Poland, plain and simple. If you are successful and manage to carve up Poland, the dramatically altered balance of power will have serious implications for the stability and autonomy of every royal house in Europe.

Russia, France, Turkey, and Poland stand firmly opposed to this Austro-Prussia power-grab. It is my sense, based on British subsidization of Poland, that Britain may be similarly aligned if not ambivalent.

If Austria and Prussia insist on these bully-boy tactics against poor and nearly-defensely Poland, they may find themselves at odds with most of the other major powers of Europe.

[montesaurus]

The Russian's Monarchy suggesting that Pr has any aspirations towards Polish territory is ludicrous. Poland presently has the highest quality army on the continent! To suggest that PR/AU have aspirations towards the division of Poland appears merely as an excuse to justify violence towards our nations.
Prussia recognizes the right of Polands existance as a nation.
Our issue is that Poland did not have to accept Saxony as a protectorate! In so doing Poland initiated war with Prussia.
As Prussia has stated before this is an issue between Poland and Prussia and will be resolved as far as Pr is concerned when Saxony falls. At that point there will be a cessation of hostilities unless Poland chooses to invade Prussia. If hostilities cease then I can see where Poland and Pr could become friends!
To give up Breslau, is something that the Prussian Monarchy will not consider. To give up a supply point that is within two areas of the capital of Austria could endanger our Austrian fiends, and will not be considered!

[Marshal Villars]

Poland lives with enemies on the doorstep of its capital every single day. Two of them. We had hoped to be treated as equal partners in the security of central Europe, but see that isn't the case. We want to give to Prussia what Prussia refuses to give to us--namely, a buffer around its Capital.

Again, Poland has a greater legal right to be in Saxony than Prussia does.

If Ponitatowski ruled Berlin and Frederick William II were sitting in Cracow, the Breslau-Saxony deal would have been done a long time ago.

Most sincerely,

Poniatowski

[Randomizer]

His Majesty the Czar seems to have truly succumbed to Polish propaganda so it needs to be re-stated that Austria has No Territorial Ambitions in Poland whatsoever. In this matter Austria considers Polish current Western borders inviolate. Poland on the otherhand wishes to detach a valued and loyal province from Prussia in a case of crass and opportunistic expansionism.

Austria has made No Military moves against Poland or Russia and does not intend to do so unless Poland and it's cabal decide on War.

This Saxon Crisis has been manufactured by Polish incursions into Western Europe and attempted Polish land grabs at the expense of Prussia.

If Warsaw chooses War there will be nothing left to do but fight.

Franz II

[Marshal Villars]

Posted as Poniatowski:

"Crass and opportunistic expansionism"

What was the invasion of Saxony? Now that it is a Polish protectorate any further work to topple the government in Dresden is BLATANTLY "crass and opportunistic" expansionism.

My friends, Poland didn't have to do any arm-twisting. Poland just appealed to people's sense of justice and cried for help defending her in the future against nations which obviously weren't willing to cut her any slack and also attempted to turn my legal acquisition and defense of Saxony into some kind of "Polish Expansionism". Europe was worried about Poland and the obvious inability of Austria-Prussia to reach an agreement which Britain, France, Russia, Turkey, and Poland expressly indicated was totally reasonable.

As far as Poland is concerned it has a total right to Saxony due to our connected history and the fact that it IS now a Polish protectorate. Please check your maps if you disagree. Crass and opportunistic expansion will be occurring at Poland's expense IF the attacks on Dresden continue.

There are two ways to take Saxony. The nice way (as I did) and the crass and opportunistic way (without okaying it with your potentially interested neighbors--as Prussia did). I took it the legal way. Prussia marched in the crass and opportunistic illegal way, then wonders why it finds itself in an international political crisis.

[Marshal Villars]

Posted as me:

It's an interesting meltdown for being so early in the game! [X(]

[Randomizer]

Posted as me:
First time PBEM and this is putting real world diplomatic posturing and rhetoric in a new light!

[Marshal Villars]

Posted as Ponitatowski:

To quote the Prussian diplomat: "By accepting Saxony as a Polish protectorate, Poland initiated war with Prussia".

As if it isn't natural to pick up territories in the friendly way. Listening to the Prussian diplomat speak, one would think that the illegal and hostile take over of a minor nation without the consultation of your neighbors was the only way to do things!

Poland wasn't consulted about Saxony. If we had been, we might have been able to make sure our aggressive policies were off! They were set to on because that is the default for the beginning of the scenario. I hadn't even checked them yet.

The Prussian diplomat makes it sound as if the hostile surprise invasion of a minor nation is the most natural thing in the world and people who defend them are the villains! Again, Poland took control of Saxony the nice way. Prussia wishes to stomp it out of existence and refuses to come to agreements which would allow Europe to think that Berlin is being ruled by a level headed prince instead of a despot.

Discussing illegal take-overs with your neighbors will avoid such issues in the future.

In the end, if Prussia doesn't want to exchange Saxony for Breslau because of a fear that Poland will attack Berlin with it, then why should Poland trust anything coming out of Prussia? It was this lack of trust which destroyed the working relationship with Berlin.

Apparently, Breslau is too important a strategic objective for Prussia to give up in exchange for Saxony and a good relationship with Poland. It is interesting that catapulting Poland into the status of Russian protectorate and turning Poland into one of the Russias was apparently worth less "strategically" than keeping Breslau. However, the decisions made here make it clear that that is precisely how unimportant Poland was to the Prussian-Austrian alliance. I won't have any bad feelings about future developments based on this decision.

Until this point--with the rejection of any kind of a settlement offer for Saxony--Poland was totally committed to central European stability.

-Poniatowski

[Marshal Villars]

@Randomizer... it sure beats playing the computer!

[Randomizer]

In an sincere effort to avoid escalating the current Saxon Crisis into a General European War, Austria will clairfy her position.

Austria will not intervene on the side of Prussia in a Prussian-Polish conflict over Saxony and Breslau provided no other Power joins on the side of Poland. Furthermore Austria will Guarantee Poland's existing frontier with Austria in the event of bi-lateral hostilities between Prussia and Poland.

Austria does however, reserve the right of Self Defence and will honour her Obligations to Prussia should any of the other Powers intervene.

The Emperor hopes that His Good Neighbour, First Consul Poinatowsky and Close Friend, King Wilhelm can arrive at some common ground and avoid an effusion of bloodshed over the trifling matter of Saxony.

Tegettoff
Foreign Minister to the Court of Franz II, Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and cetera

[Mus]

Villars your PM Box is full.

French turn is in.

Who are we waiting on for turn 3?

[terje439]

Britain strongly urges everyone to take a few steps back, if any sides wishes a war over these tiny provinces, Britain will simply have to stop sending financial aid to the central european nations. We will NOT fund nations that throws all of Europe into war.

I have also seen other nations claim that our deals with France is a bad thing, we find this strange, a deal that secures peace can NEVER be a bad thing, yet it is looked down upon.

It seems that Britain's values and desires are completelty different from everyone else...We merely want peace...

KGVIVIVI

[vaalen]

My unavailablity yesterday is what is holding up the game. I have sent PMs to my prospective allies, and will able to complete and send in my turn once I have replies.

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Yeah, what is holding up the game? This one is already getting interesting and it is just out of the starting blocks! [:D]

[vaalen]

Ottoman turn sent in.

[Anthropoid]

RusDone turn3 sent back.

In Moscow, we have grown tired of Polish' Janus-faced diplomacy these past months . . . yes we agree; no we don't agree . . . DoW our common enemies; no don't! . . . march your forces deep into Poland with no supply . . . oh yes! of course, that WOULD be quite harmful to them wouldn't it; well yes of course we will provide an RoP and supply support for Russian forces to "protect" us . . . and still no such thing.

It is increasingly clear that Polish diplomats do not say what they mean and stick to it, but just might say anything they think any other king or prince would like to hear.

Moscow offered a perfectly reasonable and transparent arrangement involving protection of Poland from Prussia, and any other enemies of Poland. Having rejected that treaty, Polish leadership can now taste the fruits of rejecting our sincerity and honesty and returning it with duplicity, evasiveness, and changing deals.

To our Turkish and French friends, we apologize if our change in policy with Poland puts us at odds with you. We have no arguments with your honorable houses, sadly it would seem inopportune to join the Warsaw Pact at this time however, given our decision to adopt a radically different policy about Poland.

We have Declared a state of War on Poland (note, Russian forces were moved outside of Poland before this DoW was made) and we intend to occupy the eastern provinces of Poland which are rightfully part of Russia.

[Randomizer]

It is with some concern that His Imperial Majesty's government looks upon the massive build up of Turkish forces in Belgrade.  Austria has made no threatening movements towards the Sultan's realm and desires to maintain the Peace with the Ottoman Empire.

Austria Turn 3 sent in.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
It is increasingly clear that Polish diplomats do not say what they mean and stick to it, but just might say anything they think any other king or prince would like to hear.

There are right of passage treaties and supply depot treaties on the table between Poland and Russia this turn visible to everyone, the turn after the idea was discussed.

So what you really have is the Russians clearly not saying what they mean and not sticking to it.

First you condemn aggression against Poland and agree to enter an agreement to protect Polish sovereignty. Then the very next turn you are declaring war on Poland, using lack of various only discussed and agreed to the previous turn and immediately provided as a partial excuse?

This is stupidity or madness (or both).

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

We have Declared a state of War on Poland (note, Russian forces were moved outside of Poland before this DoW was made) and we intend to occupy the eastern provinces of Poland which are rightfully part of Russia.

LOL, this just makes the Russian perfidy here blatant.

This means that while the Czar was condemning Prussian moves against Poland and agreeing to help defend the Poles last turn he was actually making movements in order to be able to declare war this turn.

[Mus]

Villars your PM Box is full again.