Reason why US mediums are such killers?

[Nicholas Bell]

I have also experienced the US A-20s, B-25s, and B-26s on occasion being "super killers" of German interceptors, that others have mentioned.

It dawned on my it might be all those nose guns those bombers have, getting included in the return fire routines. While I know there were isolated instances where bombers fired against fighters using their cheek gun packs (mostly in the Pacific), IIRC those guns were not sighted or set up for air-to-air use. In fact, I think they were actually canted down a bit so the bomber would not have to dive so steeply when strafing. And strafing should be their only use. If that cannot be flagged in the code. I would suggest removing those cheek packs and leaving them with a single .30 cal if anything (nothing for the A-20).

[Golden Bear]

Interesting. I haven't seen this. Through 50 turns I will say that they do not appear close to as good as the heavies in knocking down fighters. Might be we're just seeing different things. A lot of variation possible in results in this game.


Carl

[Hard Sarge]

unless every Axis plane is attacking you from the front, it shouldn't do anything

[KenchiSulla]

Doesnt the bounce bomber part mean they make a head on attack? I have noticed it as well, especially on A20's

[wernerpruckner]

Medium bombers seem to be fighter killers....and they are....for a short time.....it seems that this happens with most new toys.......the Axis pilots will learn how to fight them sooner or later...
during the beta tests I have seen this very often......but always suddenly they are no big problem any more....
 
I do not know if this is real or just a feeling.......

[Dobey455]

I would also have to say that in my games the mediums are not as resiliant as the heavies. They shoot a few down, but loose more themselves. Oddly in the old game and the new the Baltimore has done the best, and everyone says they suck, so I guess that's an indication of the variation in this game.

[kitridge]

I think there might be something to the front gun strength.  I just had a golden opportunity dropped in my lap on turn 15 of my full BTR campaign to beat up the American medium bomber force when 75 B26 raided Quackenbush airfield up near Bremen.  The escort was taken care of near Nordholz and my northern 109 and 190 gruppes with extra cannons went to work.  The end result was a loss of 23 interceptors and some darn good pilots for a kill of 28 bombers.

An hour earlier, a Boston raid ventured in to bomb Handorf along the same track.  The escorts were taken care of early and the Bostons were eaten alive: 31 of 43 shot down for the loss of 5 interceptors. 

A few variables:
- The units that got eaten alive by the B26's included most of the same units that ate the Boston's up an hour earlier.  Could fatigue be a factor for those units?
- Morale was very high as these are my northern B17 killers; Skill on these units was high 70's, low 80's.  Some of these units are my best single-engined fighters available, seasoned by killing scores of B17's on northern raids.
- All units were set to default doctrines (all set to bounce)

I'd expect these results from heavy bombers, but not medium bombers... I'd agree with the idea that these results come and go randomly.  I've had some good intercepts, and some really bad ones... One thing is for sure, I'm hesitant to vector my fighters against medium bombers and salivate at the thought of B17's... That's a bit backwards.

[Hard Sarge]

that sounds like Fat kicking in

[Golden Bear]

I don't know about this one. After reading this I just ran the same turn over and over: B26s attacking near Paris on Feb. 22nd of '44 campaign.

For each raid I launched 4 complete BGs, 128 bombers.

With escort, 3 bombers lost, 2 LW shot down by bombers. (A LOT of escorts, very few attacks on the bombers)

No escort, 21 bombers lost, 5 LW shot down by bombers.

I chose this region and did it this way so the LW would not suffer fatigue from second missions, etc. The B26s were fresh but the LW had flown the day before, multiple intercepts.

I think that you've got to pay attention to the conditions on these intercepts. I simply do not see any unbalance in medium bombers resisting interceptors.


Carlos

[kitridge]

I ran my own batch of test earlier today and ran them again now to verify and I'm seeing results that are consistently bloody. I've got a save made prior to the action phase as well as one from after the action phase to replay the action - IIRC, 36 - 24 bomber to fighter loses on the most recent run through. If anyone's interested in the pre-action phase save and the post-action replay save, PM me and I will email them out. That way, anyone can give it a shot or replay my save and tell me what I did wrong ([:'(])... I'd be interested in seeing if it's just my technique or if there's something else going on.

[Golden Bear]

I guess we just disagree. Is it an Allied vs. Axis player thing?

[Nicholas Bell]

I hex edited the cheek guns out of my on-going game and the occasional ridiculous LW losses against the mediums is gone.  The interceptors still take a few hits, but nothing that looks crazy.  I really think the reason we are seeing different results is because the only time the cheek guns would come into play is when the interceptors were attacking from the front.  Whether one uses direct or bounce tactics would also play into the equation I'm sure.

I'm just glad I can take care of this anomoly myself.

[Golden Bear]

Also perhaps, as I posted in a different thread just now, try attacking more heavily when the formations have been broken up by flak or earlier intercepts staged with the purpose of breaking a formation.

I just lost 22 of 24 Mitchells in a raid that was supposed to come in while all the interceptors were busy with big raids elsewhere. Their escort unit didn't launch and two units of 109s just took it apart with maybe a single loss.


Carlos

[Richard III]

I think a feature where we could recall a Bomb mission if the fighters didn`t launch or were delayed do to weather would be a very useful thing in the game. The AI always seems to find a unengaged fighter unit for unescorted bombers.

I`ve had an lot of bad results, especially with BC from weather delays/or Sqds. having their missions cx`ed, especially the Pathfinders. BC has very few accessible weather days and I`ve been getting a lot "delays over the assembly area" messages.

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Also perhaps, as I posted in a different thread just now, try attacking more heavily when the formations have been broken up by flak or earlier intercepts staged with the purpose of breaking a formation.

I just lost 22 of 24 Mitchells in a raid that was supposed to come in while all the interceptors were busy with big raids elsewhere. Their escort unit didn't launch and two units of 109s just took it apart with maybe a single loss.


Carlos

[Golden Bear]

I've wondered about recalling formations that are clearly flying into bad weather and that have had their escorts grounded. THis seems to have happened quite a bit but not always successfully. Many times the raid didn't get the message or only some part of it did.


Carlos

[kitridge]

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

I guess we just disagree. Is it an Allied vs. Axis player thing?

I don't think it's a agree/disagree kinda thing: you're seeing results that I simply don't get.

I go out and shoot down 100 B17's and lose 25 fighters but shoot down 35 medium bombers and lose 25 fighters. The game's bloody, ok, I get that, but the ratio seems wrong to me and can, at times, ruin my game experience. I'll just have to get used to it.

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: swift

Medium bombers seem to be fighter killers....and they are....for a short time.....it seems that this happens with most new toys.......the Axis pilots will learn how to fight them sooner or later...
during the beta tests I have seen this very often......but always suddenly they are no big problem any more....

I do not know if this is real or just a feeling.......

Swift,

I'm with you on this one.
In the old game...
At first I see those attacks where the interceptors take it on the chin...
by year's end you can't send medium deep without lots of escorts and luck!

TS

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: Richard III

I think a feature where we could recall a Bomb mission if the fighters didn`t launch or were delayed do to weather would be a very useful thing in the game. The AI always seems to find a unengaged fighter unit for unescorted bombers.

I`ve had an lot of bad results, especially with BC from weather delays/or Sqds. having their missions cx`ed, especially the Pathfinders. BC has very few accessible weather days and I`ve been getting a lot "delays over the assembly area" messages.

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Also perhaps, as I posted in a different thread just now, try attacking more heavily when the formations have been broken up by flak or earlier intercepts staged with the purpose of breaking a formation.

I just lost 22 of 24 Mitchells in a raid that was supposed to come in while all the interceptors were busy with big raids elsewhere. Their escort unit didn't launch and two units of 109s just took it apart with maybe a single loss.


Carlos

We know about it was done historically, etc.
The problem is...

Anytime something doesn't "look or feel" right you recall the bombers!

Imagine playing H v H... if everytime the escort was delayed or cancelled the defender/Axis has lost their chance to pounce. We take away their bragging rights. Not to mention how to actually incorporate it in human v human games, since the basic structure of the game is offense plans, defense reacts.

I was originally a big supporter of the idea, but thinking about game "fairness"; I've since changed my opinion.

TS

BTW: Did I mention that the weather in this game sucks!!! [:D]

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: kitridge

...

I go out and shoot down 100 B17's and lose 25 fighters but shoot down 35 medium bombers and lose 25 fighters. The game's bloody, ok, I get that, but the ratio seems wrong to me and can, at times, ruin my game experience. I'll just have to get used to it.

Kitridge,

What I see is a big DRM involved...
Over the long haul, I've seen e/a attack get whacked, break off, and go home and lick their wounds. I've also seen just the opposite, the escort attacks, and attacks and the mediums go down only to be saved when the e/a run low on ammo or fuel. I've also seen where the e/a and the medium fly along doing nothing till a half-hearted attack is made, then break off with very little to no damage done.

TS

[harley]

DRM? Digital Rights Management?

I probably should know what that stands for, but I don't. (I also don't know what KB stands for, but as I don't have/desire WITP:AE it probably doesn't matter)