War in the East Q&A

[PyleDriver]

Well those are good questions, thats why we play...Moscow is the heart, as Paris was also. The big thing is that the USSR was a bigger country. I think it came down (in the loss) was pride and false hopes. How can we build than in, we can't. So what do we do? Just give everyone the tools, then dream on. Really, thats what its about...As far as the Soviets and your question about Moscow, it hurts about the loss in population, but they still kick out 400 tanks a week. This game is so intriging...They could put this game on the market today and you would love it, however, how do I say this, we have alot of very smart guys working on this to make things so much better...

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

...Will the Germans be able to match the rate of advance that they were able to do historically at the start of the campaign, particularly in the North and Central? I ask this, because for some reason, most Eastern Front simulations tend to make it very difficult or impossible to match those historical advance rates, mostly because the Soviet units are too over rated, or maybe the German units are under rated. I hope that this game does not make this mistake of over rating the Soviet Army at the start of the campaign, but lets logistics, weather and attrition take it toll on the Germans as was the case historically, of course assuming the German player does not make any huge mistakes at the start of the game.

To answer your question from a purely technical point of view, yes German units are fast enough to match their historical counterparts rate of advance. Does that mean they WILL match their historical progress? Not necessarily. Actual progress in the game depends both on how you, as the Axis player, handle your forces and on how the Russian player, human or computer, responds in kind.

As for a comparison for forces, the German Army is almost uniformly of very high quality while the Red Army varies from almost decent to abysmal. It won't be the quality of the Red Army that initially slows the Axis player down but if he doesn't utterly smash the Russians in the early going, the quantity of the Red Army will catch up to him and as the saying goes quantity has a quality all its own.

[PyleDriver]

Wow, how far can we go. Yep we can untill supply runs short, which it will by mid August. I favor a more Von Bock plan (funny never thought much of him). Destroy the frontier units then advance. Your armor can get hung out on a limb with no supply so quickly in this simulation, as in reallity. But on the other hand as Guderian pressed, you need to get across those major rivers (their a real bitch)...I usally like my armor to advance in areas so infantry can force march. It costs extra MP's to go into ZOC's or enemy territory. I like to fan out my mech units so the infantry can speed to the front.

[j campbell]

What are the terrain effects for river crossings? 1/2 firepower or so? Can you airdrop over a river hexside to gain a bridgehead?

[thackaray]

I find it interesting on some of the strategies/tactics that people are using during testing.

There's one I'm interested in, what happens if you mass all the Mechanised/Tank units in hexes next to each other, so that when attacking they do so separately and advance into hexes in a uniform manner.  As long the attacks are aimed at hexes that give good supply and the breadth of that attack line is such that the supply lines at the attack axis are safe from being cut off, excluding partisans involvement.

How does the AI handle this gamey local superiority tactic ?  In WIR it was effective in opening up a massive hole in defensive lines, as long as the initial axis of attacks were along railway lines to secure the supply line from counter attacks.

Looking at the game map, there are more railway lines to get supply from than the WIR game.  I know there different games, but I'm interested in how gamey things could be.

I do realise that playing against a human opponent, it would be different as the player would normally create secondary defensive lines as far as units could be spared.

[PyleDriver]

First, attacking across any adverse terrain costs extra MP's. Major rivers are the worst. If a player has good entrenchment defending them you can watch equipment dissapear...

Rail lines are abuntant, but they need repair/conversion. Thus the railhead is way back there in the summer of 41. By spring of 42 most raillines a converted...

As far as massing all you mech in one place, why would you? I stated earlier why you fan them out to allow infanty to reach key areas in mid August. You will need those infantray divisions when things really get tough...

[Duck Doc]

Ok, let's cut to the chase... how are victory conditions determined? How does each side win? Forgive me if this has been asked.

[Joel Billings]

Probably asked and answered already, but just in case it hasn't, in small map/short scenarios, points are awarded for objectives (both per turn and at the end of the scenario). Points are also awarded for losses. The specific amounts are all adjustable for each scenario and set by the scenario designer.

In the longer Campaign games we have not decided on victory conditions yet, although as you can imagine Gary has many ideas he's been kicking around for years. We have other more pressing items to deal with now, but will eventualllly get to determining victory conditions for the Campaigns.

[Duck Doc]

Thanks for the answer. Actually I looked through the thread & if anyone had asked about the victory conditions before I missed it.

Are the Caucasus oilfields in play? If so how much are they worth?

I don't think the extent of the map has been detailed yet either.

[PyleDriver]

Dale, Pavel is our Russian expert. He lives in the Baltic States. He has brought so much to this game. Between map design or Soviet production he has brought things out of the woodwork. I love this guy. All the industries, oil included are being factored in. As Joel stated, theres still alot of tweaking going on all these items...

[Phenix]

How are partisans handled?

[PyleDriver]

Partisans are a real pain. Unlike WIR, their factored in very well. The Soviets have dozens of cell units that can't be seen by the Axis player. The Soviet AI auto night airdrops to activate them. If activated they cut raillines. The Axis also needs to keep garision requirments in cities to keep these cell groups from growing in number...

[Jeffrey H.]

Do POW's factor into the produciton models as labor ?

[Joshuatree]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Do POW's factor into the produciton models as labor ?

I doubt that very much. Usually it's a border most gamedevelopers don't dare to cross. Besides, then you could also count in the Wounded in Action, and POW's do need food and shelter too, how would that count?

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: Joshuatree

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Do POW's factor into the produciton models as labor ?

I doubt that very much. Usually it's a border most gamedevelopers don't dare to cross. Besides, then you could also count in the Wounded in Action, and POW's do need food and shelter too, how would that count?

Yeah, I suppose you're right about the border issue. I was just thinking about the classic conflicting priorities that the Germans faced in late 1941. Go all out for Moscow or turn South and encircle a huge Russian army ?

So many Russians were captured and I imagine they were used as POW labor. Unsavory as it is, it was an aspect of the conflict. Significant ? I don't know, I'm sure there are opinions about the matter.

[Zemke]

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4

...Will the Germans be able to match the rate of advance that they were able to do historically at the start of the campaign, particularly in the North and Central? I ask this, because for some reason, most Eastern Front simulations tend to make it very difficult or impossible to match those historical advance rates, mostly because the Soviet units are too over rated, or maybe the German units are under rated. I hope that this game does not make this mistake of over rating the Soviet Army at the start of the campaign, but lets logistics, weather and attrition take it toll on the Germans as was the case historically, of course assuming the German player does not make any huge mistakes at the start of the game.

To answer your question from a purely technical point of view, yes German units are fast enough to match their historical counterparts rate of advance. Does that mean they WILL match their historical progress? Not necessarily. Actual progress in the game depends both on how you, as the Axis player, handle your forces and on how the Russian player, human or computer, responds in kind.

As for a comparison for forces, the German Army is almost uniformly of very high quality while the Red Army varies from almost decent to abysmal. It won't be the quality of the Red Army that initially slows the Axis player down but if he doesn't utterly smash the Russians in the early going, the quantity of the Red Army will catch up to him and as the saying goes quantity has a quality all its own.

What I am driving at is not only the quality and capabilities of each side, but the Command and Control of subordinate units. I am currently reading David Glantz's "Before Stalingrad, Barbarossa-Hitler's Invasion of Russia 1941", and he states the C2 of the Soviet Army was non existent during the first two weeks of the fight on the axis of advance to Minsk, and I quote "In 18 days of combat, German Army Group Centre advanced 600km (360 miles), occupied all of Belorussia and inflicted 417,790 casualties on the Western Front...". As stated assuming the Germans player made the same moves historically could the Soviet player counter those moves, particularly along this axis of advance toward Minsk? My gut tells me if they can, then that would not be historically correct, as the Soviet C2 system broken down completely at least for the Western Front. Does the game have the ability to reflect this in any way?

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Zemke_4



What I am driving at is not only the quality and capabilities of each side, but the Command and Control of subordinate units. I am currently reading David Glantz's "Before Stalingrad, Barbarossa-Hitler's Invasion of Russia 1941", and he states the C2 of the Soviet Army was non existent during the first two weeks of the fight on the axis of advance to Minsk, and I quote "In 18 days of combat, German Army Group Centre advanced 600km (360 miles), occupied all of Belorussia and inflicted 417,790 casualties on the Western Front...". As stated assuming the Germans player made the same moves historically could the Soviet player counter those moves, particularly along this axis of advance toward Minsk? My gut tells me if they can, then that would not be historically correct, as the Soviet C2 system broken down completely at least for the Western Front. Does the game have the ability to reflect this in any way?

I'm going to have to answer this from my personal experience playing both the Axis and the Russian sides. I've played the Russian side both against the computer and against a human player. As yet I've only played the Axis side against the computer. In all of these combinations, the German army goes through the Red Army like a hot knife through butter everywhere but in the Army Group South area (southern Poland, western Ukraine). The human Axis player always captures Riga, Minsk, and Lvov on the first turn. Russian losses are usually 10 to 1 or greater. As the Russian player there was nothing I could do on turn 1 but fall back and try to form some kind of a continuous front. Sheer quantity of forces allows the Russian player to put a decent line together in the south backed up by a second echelon. In the north and center, the Russian is lucky to have units in adjacent hexes and little if anything backing up the front line.

As I said previously, from turn 2 on a lot depends on how each player reacts to the other's moves. The Axis player can keep advancing at the historical rate but only if the Russian player mimics history as well.

[Zemke]

Thanks Jaw, makes sense to me, cannot wait for this game.

[Phenix]

is this game scheduled for release Christmas 2010? (didnt quite understand the releaseinfo)

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Phenix

is this game scheduled for release Christmas 2010? (didnt quite understand the releaseinfo)

I've been told as early as Spring, 2010 but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.