A needed fix for allied production

Eagle Day to Bombing of the Reich is a improved and enhanced edition of Talonsoft's older Battle of Britain and Bombing the Reich. This updated version represents the best simulation of the air war over Britain and the strategic bombing campaign over Europe that has ever been made.

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TechSgt
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by TechSgt »

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

ORIGINAL: sprior

Plus, if the allies HAVE to boost production then in games turn they should lose.

Really =)

Well in one game it is 1/44 All the German units except night fighters are
TA152C The good one. All the night fighters are HE219-5
again the good ones.

The allies have no bombers left. When they try they get shredded.

So tell me....how did the allies 'deserve' to lose?
What exactly, did they do wrong?
When I first read this I thought Jan '45! Heck, by then it is GAME OVER!

But looking at Jan '44, (Forty-Four!)! I'm thinking a little creative editing is going on.
If I'm playing someone who has to win that bad, fine I resign!

TS

BTW: I play as Allies, I have enough to do now. Don't force production. General Arnold in Washington is doing quite well. [;)]
kaybayray
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by kaybayray »

Hey TechSgt,

Wow I ddint notice that. Please correct me if I am wrong. The TA-152 was a Hight Altitude "Super Fighter" correct and the HE-219 was a Twin Engine night interceptor that had the latest onboard Elint gear for bomber intercept correct?

There is a scenario in this game where the entire Luftwaffe Air Units are comprised solely of these 2 Aircraft?

Yeah I would expect the Allies not to be able to keep up with a50+ Knot speed advantage at high altitude grouped with superior manuverablility at alt..... jeez louiz...

And Night Bombing would be a bloodbath if faced by formations of AC that all have the ultimate in AC detection gear.

Please tell me that there is some serious modding goin on here.....

Later,
KayBay
It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter
Lanconic
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Lanconic »

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

Hey TechSgt,

Wow I ddint notice that. Please correct me if I am wrong. The TA-152 was a Hight Altitude "Super Fighter" correct and the HE-219 was a Twin Engine night interceptor that had the latest onboard Elint gear for bomber intercept correct?

There is a scenario in this game where the entire Luftwaffe Air Units are comprised solely of these 2 Aircraft?

Yeah I would expect the Allies not to be able to keep up with a50+ Knot speed advantage at high altitude grouped with superior manuverablility at alt..... jeez louiz...

And Night Bombing would be a bloodbath if faced by formations of AC that all have the ultimate in AC detection gear.

Please tell me that there is some serious modding goin on here.....

Later,
KayBay

No it can easily be done within the established game rules
You just need to JUNK all the wasted resources devoted to the ME109 series.
I converted ALL production to the FW190 series and used 40 engines for the HE219 series.
The TA152c uses the same engine as the HE219-5
SO it simplifies everything.
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harley
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by harley »

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

No it can easily be done within the established game rules
You just need to JUNK all the wasted resources devoted to the ME109 series.
I converted ALL production to the FW190 series and used 40 engines for the HE219 series.
The TA152c uses the same engine as the HE219-5
SO it simplifies everything.

There are about 100AC prod points per day. You currently need 100 points to advance by one month. If you convert all prod to the 2 new types, allowing for time to change over it would only take about 30 - 35 days to complete the research. Remember the size one sites are ready in 10 days, but there's 2 or 3 size 6 sites that take 2 months to retool, so that's 12 or more points of prod that can't be put into research.

After the patch, however...

The amount of research required to save a month is directly tied to how long before that type is due. Presently something that is due in Jan 1945 requires 1600 units to research - about 16 days prod. In the version we have in test at the moment, it requires around 6500 to produce - 65 days prod. For the defender to forgo all replacements for over 2 months, it would be a difficult proposition, especially in a PBEM game. You'd really have to pick your defensive lines carefully, and hope he didn't put a hole in your AFACs for too long. To get something from May 45 into prod, you would need over 11,000 units of research.

To get something due in the next month you only need 100 units, that's always the minimum.

this isn't final, either. It feels right, but we won't know without some real playtesting.
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by KenchiSulla »

Hey Harley, glad to hear you are working on the research and production part!
AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by TechSgt »

Harley & Lanconic;

What I'm having a hard time with is, what were the Allies doing during this time?
Axis loses not being replaced should elevate the AS. Therfore, the Allies should push even harder, advancing the "Big Week". That means bombing AFAC, EFAC, & CFAC's!

While thinking of what to reply, I get a nagging feeling...

What you are doing is cutting out all the "historic" beauracracy that hindered the Axis war effort, hmmm...

1) The Allies can lose by not having enough points, to withstand the D-Day mandatory bombing phase. (There is an exploit around this)
2) The Allies can lose by not having the points at the end of 700 turns. (The exploit here is OLD AGE!) [:D]

I have to think some more about this...

What I'm having a hard time with is, what were the Allies doing during this time?

TS
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Hard Sarge »

well, shouldn't the Allies be bombing the enemy Aircraft plants ?

most of my games, I can bleed the 109s unit dry be losses, and most of the 190 units dry by killing off there production

people who want to game the system to beat the AI, and then brag about it, just cause the system to be changed, I would like to see either of these two guys who can get 152 C's into production in Jan of 44, go against somebody like Swift in a PBEM game, and see what the real cost this idea is

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kaybayray
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by kaybayray »

Hey Guys [8D]

I am trying to wrap my head around this so bare with me as I only have 3 functioning brain cells.

Am I correctly interpreting what Harley and Sarge are saying about Production units being used to fund Research and Re-tooling to new Aircraft? When this is going on those points being spent on Research or Re-tooling or whatever is required to develop the new design and implement it into production are not going to production of current models? Is this correct?

If that is correct or somewhat correct then the AC being delivered to the Replacement Pool for the Axis is being directly effected in the overall total number of aircraft being delivered? So active line units are not receiving the maximum number of replacement units during this time?

Some questions come to mind.....

How large are the Luftwaffe units? They are similar in size to the Allied units correct... like 25-45 aircraft max depending on model?

Losses to a squadron effect Morale correct?

Front line units will encounter unreplaced losses if this is happening correct?

The time frame we are talking about here is much greater then what.. 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? Which is the expected case?

Yeah man... so TechSgt is all over this... what the heck are the Allies doing during this Vacation?

Am I that far off here? I mean there is no way that this endeavor could be sustained to victory against anything other than the AI right? Or can even the AI destroy this?

What ever the case may be, Sarge and Harley please do not change this game significantly due to the play style of a few. Keep in mind I am a novice and dont really know all the interlated effects of all we are discussing here.

Later,
KayBay
It's all Mind Over Matter....
If you dont mind... It dont matter
Lanconic
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Lanconic »

ORIGINAL: harley

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

No it can easily be done within the established game rules
You just need to JUNK all the wasted resources devoted to the ME109 series.
I converted ALL production to the FW190 series and used 40 engines for the HE219 series.
The TA152c uses the same engine as the HE219-5
SO it simplifies everything.

There are about 100AC prod points per day. You currently need 100 points to advance by one month. If you convert all prod to the 2 new types, allowing for time to change over it would only take about 30 - 35 days to complete the research. Remember the size one sites are ready in 10 days, but there's 2 or 3 size 6 sites that take 2 months to retool, so that's 12 or more points of prod that can't be put into research.

After the patch, however...

The amount of research required to save a month is directly tied to how long before that type is due. Presently something that is due in Jan 1945 requires 1600 units to research - about 16 days prod. In the version we have in test at the moment, it requires around 6500 to produce - 65 days prod. For the defender to forgo all replacements for over 2 months, it would be a difficult proposition, especially in a PBEM game. You'd really have to pick your defensive lines carefully, and hope he didn't put a hole in your AFACs for too long. To get something from May 45 into prod, you would need over 11,000 units of research.

To get something due in the next month you only need 100 units, that's always the minimum.

this isn't final, either. It feels right, but we won't know without some real playtesting.

So what you are doing is preventing good play by the Axis.
You punish the player who is good. But you dont punish HS for example
for bleeding the 109's and bombing the plants he knows produce the fw190.

So the Axis get penalized for using hindsight, but oddly NOT the allies.
That is so very fair. That isnt a simulation any longer, its a game.

The correct way to approch this is the way I suggested. If in reality the allies had needed more resources, they WOULD HAVE USED MORE.

That is the realistic approach.
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Lanconic »

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

Hey Guys [8D]

I am trying to wrap my head around this so bare with me as I only have 3 functioning brain cells.

Am I correctly interpreting what Harley and Sarge are saying about Production units being used to fund Research and Re-tooling to new Aircraft? When this is going on those points being spent on Research or Re-tooling or whatever is required to develop the new design and implement it into production are not going to production of current models? Is this correct?

If that is correct or somewhat correct then the AC being delivered to the Replacement Pool for the Axis is being directly effected in the overall total number of aircraft being delivered? So active line units are not receiving the maximum number of replacement units during this time?

Some questions come to mind.....

How large are the Luftwaffe units? They are similar in size to the Allied units correct... like 25-45 aircraft max depending on model?

Losses to a squadron effect Morale correct?

Front line units will encounter unreplaced losses if this is happening correct?

The time frame we are talking about here is much greater then what.. 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? Which is the expected case?

Yeah man... so TechSgt is all over this... what the heck are the Allies doing during this Vacation?

Am I that far off here? I mean there is no way that this endeavor could be sustained to victory against anything other than the AI right? Or can even the AI destroy this?

What ever the case may be, Sarge and Harley please do not change this game significantly due to the play style of a few. Keep in mind I am a novice and dont really know all the interlated effects of all we are discussing here.

Later,
KayBay

The correct answer is that the Allies are not strong enough to deal a decisive blow
before the conversions come online. The bomber formations simply get tired, even ignoring losses. Tired bombers attrit quickly.

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Lanconic
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Lanconic »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, shouldn't the Allies be bombing the enemy Aircraft plants ?

most of my games, I can bleed the 109s unit dry be losses, and most of the 190 units dry by killing off there production

people who want to game the system to beat the AI, and then brag about it, just cause the system to be changed, I would like to see either of these two guys who can get 152 C's into production in Jan of 44, go against somebody like Swift in a PBEM game, and see what the real cost this idea is


So you admit using hindsight as the Allies but you dont like to see the German do it =)

I do not fear the Allied Bombers. I have played against a grounded Luftwaffe
just to see what I could do. The results are not pretty.

You cant bleed squadrons that are not committed.
If you guys had not scrambled the data base, I would put the B-29 into the game
and see how it would do. I have done that before. I am sure you recall.

I have nothing usefull to say aboyt any argument that is onesided.
If one side uses hindsight, then the other should be able to as well.
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Lanconic »

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

Harley & Lanconic;

What I'm having a hard time with is, what were the Allies doing during this time?
Axis loses not being replaced should elevate the AS. Therfore, the Allies should push even harder, advancing the "Big Week". That means bombing AFAC, EFAC, & CFAC's!

While thinking of what to reply, I get a nagging feeling...

What you are doing is cutting out all the "historic" beauracracy that hindered the Axis war effort, hmmm...

1) The Allies can lose by not having enough points, to withstand the D-Day mandatory bombing phase. (There is an exploit around this)
2) The Allies can lose by not having the points at the end of 700 turns. (The exploit here is OLD AGE!) [:D]

I have to think some more about this...

What I'm having a hard time with is, what were the Allies doing during this time?

TS

Historicly.....I used exactly the approach Adolf Galland recomended. Convert all resources
to the production of the best model and optimize.

Nothing could be more historical than that.
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Hard Sarge
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Hard Sarge »

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

ORIGINAL: harley

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

No it can easily be done within the established game rules
You just need to JUNK all the wasted resources devoted to the ME109 series.
I converted ALL production to the FW190 series and used 40 engines for the HE219 series.
The TA152c uses the same engine as the HE219-5
SO it simplifies everything.

There are about 100AC prod points per day. You currently need 100 points to advance by one month. If you convert all prod to the 2 new types, allowing for time to change over it would only take about 30 - 35 days to complete the research. Remember the size one sites are ready in 10 days, but there's 2 or 3 size 6 sites that take 2 months to retool, so that's 12 or more points of prod that can't be put into research.

After the patch, however...

The amount of research required to save a month is directly tied to how long before that type is due. Presently something that is due in Jan 1945 requires 1600 units to research - about 16 days prod. In the version we have in test at the moment, it requires around 6500 to produce - 65 days prod. For the defender to forgo all replacements for over 2 months, it would be a difficult proposition, especially in a PBEM game. You'd really have to pick your defensive lines carefully, and hope he didn't put a hole in your AFACs for too long. To get something from May 45 into prod, you would need over 11,000 units of research.

To get something due in the next month you only need 100 units, that's always the minimum.

this isn't final, either. It feels right, but we won't know without some real playtesting.

So what you are doing is preventing good play by the Axis.
You punish the player who is good. But you dont punish HS for example
for bleeding the 109's and bombing the plants he knows produce the fw190.

So the Axis get penalized for using hindsight, but oddly NOT the allies.
That is so very fair. That isnt a simulation any longer, its a game.

The correct way to approch this is the way I suggested. If in reality the allies had needed more resources, they WOULD HAVE USED MORE.

That is the realistic approach.

your silly
you call being able to game the system, good play, when you shouldn't be able to produce a aircraft, because the engine is not even built yet ? you need to have the engines, before you can start on the frame design

and what, you can't figure out that DB plants make DB engines, or that BMW plants make BMW engines ? FW plants make FW aircraft, and Me Plants make Me Aircraft ?, not much hindsight needed here, or "inside" info (plus I was talking about my play in BTR)

the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

a good human player will make you pay, if you try that in PBEM and depending on what Strat the AI is using, it could also hurt you, but that is a random chance when the game starts


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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Hard Sarge »

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, shouldn't the Allies be bombing the enemy Aircraft plants ?

most of my games, I can bleed the 109s unit dry be losses, and most of the 190 units dry by killing off there production

people who want to game the system to beat the AI, and then brag about it, just cause the system to be changed, I would like to see either of these two guys who can get 152 C's into production in Jan of 44, go against somebody like Swift in a PBEM game, and see what the real cost this idea is


So you admit using hindsight as the Allies but you dont like to see the German do it =)

as I posted above, how is that Hindsight, the same info I am using is the same info the Allies used, they knew that DB plants made DB engines, the same with BMW, it is the Ardo and Henschels that make a mess of things

I do not fear the Allied Bombers. I have played against a grounded Luftwaffe
just to see what I could do. The results are not pretty.

You cant bleed squadrons that are not committed.

and where are you going to put them ? in Poland ? and if you don't commit them, then there is no danger in knocking out all of your fancy Aircraft production

If you guys had not scrambled the data base, I would put the B-29 into the game
and see how it would do. I have done that before. I am sure you recall.

I have nothing usefull to say aboyt any argument that is onesided.
If one side uses hindsight, then the other should be able to as well.

also, I see you have not thought it all the way though, there is another strategy that kills your production in it's tracks
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Lanconic »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

ORIGINAL: harley




There are about 100AC prod points per day. You currently need 100 points to advance by one month. If you convert all prod to the 2 new types, allowing for time to change over it would only take about 30 - 35 days to complete the research. Remember the size one sites are ready in 10 days, but there's 2 or 3 size 6 sites that take 2 months to retool, so that's 12 or more points of prod that can't be put into research.

After the patch, however...

The amount of research required to save a month is directly tied to how long before that type is due. Presently something that is due in Jan 1945 requires 1600 units to research - about 16 days prod. In the version we have in test at the moment, it requires around 6500 to produce - 65 days prod. For the defender to forgo all replacements for over 2 months, it would be a difficult proposition, especially in a PBEM game. You'd really have to pick your defensive lines carefully, and hope he didn't put a hole in your AFACs for too long. To get something from May 45 into prod, you would need over 11,000 units of research.

To get something due in the next month you only need 100 units, that's always the minimum.

this isn't final, either. It feels right, but we won't know without some real playtesting.

So what you are doing is preventing good play by the Axis.
You punish the player who is good. But you dont punish HS for example
for bleeding the 109's and bombing the plants he knows produce the fw190.

So the Axis get penalized for using hindsight, but oddly NOT the allies.
That is so very fair. That isnt a simulation any longer, its a game.

The correct way to approch this is the way I suggested. If in reality the allies had needed more resources, they WOULD HAVE USED MORE.

That is the realistic approach.

your silly
you call being able to game the system, good play, when you shouldn't be able to produce a aircraft, because the engine is not even built yet ? you need to have the engines, before you can start on the frame design

and what, you can't figure out that DB plants make DB engines, or that BMW plants make BMW engines ? FW plants make FW aircraft, and Me Plants make Me Aircraft ?, not much hindsight needed here, or "inside" info (plus I was talking about my play in BTR)

the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

a good human player will make you pay, if you try that in PBEM and depending on what Strat the AI is using, it could also hurt you, but that is a random chance when the game starts



No I would devote research into making a better power plant.
Since for the Germans the engines are the crunch.

Until then, convert all into FW190-A5

I dont believe in flying coffins. I dont see how losing your best pilots
helps things.

You call that 'gaming' the system. Not me =) If the Allied player gets 100% hindsight
I want it as well.

The conversion into FW190-A5 is even faster.
No research is needed.
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Hard Sarge »

convert everything you got to the A5 then, good luck, that plane is a death trap

how do the Allies have 100% hindsight ?

and yes, that is what I have been trying to say, you should need to reseach the engines to get to the better engines, with out the right engine, all the fancy Frames are worthless

almost all of the late war German planes, didn't fly with the engine they were designed for, they had to go with what they had

you would be better off, learning what the G6 can do, and what it can't do, and to use it were it can do well, then to try and cut it out of production and combat

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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by kitridge »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

Hey Sarge,

Does deviating from the historical Luftwaffe production with the new research penalties make research a much less favourable strategy to just leaving the AI in charge of production and letting it upgrade everything mostly historically? Is it possible to effectively play ahistorically with these production and research changes?
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by KenchiSulla »


[/quote]

You punish the player who is good. But you dont punish HS for example
[/quote]

[8|]

I would think making the research a bit more realistic would solve this issue. Try fighting without planes for 2 months. Allied would rip your industry apart once he figures out you have nothing left to launch.
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Hard Sarge »

ORIGINAL: kitridge

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

Hey Sarge,

Does deviating from the historical Luftwaffe production with the new research penalties make research a much less favourable strategy to just leaving the AI in charge of production and letting it upgrade everything mostly historically? Is it possible to effectively play ahistorically with these production and research changes?

oh, you should be able to make changes, go after what you want, with no major issues, just, don't expect to get late war, after war planes in Jan 44

and as Harley said, the closer you are to having the plane come online, the easier it is, to "push" it some, to get it a little earlier

like the 262, you can push to try and get it earlier, but don't expect to be able to bring it in, in 43
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RE: A needed fix for allied production

Post by Lanconic »

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder


You punish the player who is good. But you dont punish HS for example
[/quote]

[8|]

I would think making the research a bit more realistic would solve this issue. Try fighting without planes for 2 months. Allied would rip your industry apart once he figures out you have nothing left to launch.
[/quote]

I have =) Many times
The bombers get tired.
Why not try it yourself?
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