A needed fix for allied production

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

ORIGINAL: kitridge

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
the testers didn't want me to make the changes I wanted to add to the reseach system, so I didn't, but since players want to game the system, the way I wanted to avoid, we will make changes to make the system work the way it was suppost to

you want to break the whole production system to build a plane that never flew, and then call it good play, it don't work that way

Hey Sarge,

Does deviating from the historical Luftwaffe production with the new research penalties make research a much less favourable strategy to just leaving the AI in charge of production and letting it upgrade everything mostly historically? Is it possible to effectively play ahistorically with these production and research changes?

oh, you should be able to make changes, go after what you want, with no major issues, just, don't expect to get late war, after war planes in Jan 44

and as Harley said, the closer you are to having the plane come online, the easier it is, to "push" it some, to get it a little earlier

like the 262, you can push to try and get it earlier, but don't expect to be able to bring it in, in 43

Who needs the 262 when you can get the Ta152?
The jet is a boondoggle
The Ta152 cannot be outfought. AND it shoots down bombers as well.

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

convert everything you got to the A5 then, good luck, that plane is a death trap

how do the Allies have 100% hindsight ?

and yes, that is what I have been trying to say, you should need to reseach the engines to get to the better engines, with out the right engine, all the fancy Frames are worthless

almost all of the late war German planes, didn't fly with the engine they were designed for, they had to go with what they had

you would be better off, learning what the G6 can do, and what it can't do, and to use it were it can do well, then to try and cut it out of production and combat

Critical industries is hindsight.
We all know that OIL was the big one.
Oddly enough the USAAF didnt go after that early.

[Hard Sarge]

Critical industries is hindsight.
We all know that OIL was the big one.
Oddly enough the USAAF didnt go after that early.


come on, how is that hindsight, when it was part of the targeting plan ?

the bigger issue back then, was Harris wouldn't follow orders, and refused to bomb what he was ordered to bomb (of course, Portal was old school, so he never "really" ordered him, he keep suggesting that he should follow the orders he was given)

[sprior]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Historicly.....I used exactly the approach Adolf Galland recomended. Convert all resources
to the production of the best model and optimize.

Nothing could be more historical than that.

Except what actually happened.

Maybe what's borking the production model is the fact there's no room for Nazi hierarchy in-fighting and decisions like putting bombs on the 262.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: sprior

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Historicly.....I used exactly the approach Adolf Galland recomended. Convert all resources
to the production of the best model and optimize.

Nothing could be more historical than that.

Except what actually happened.

Maybe what's borking the production model is the fact there's no room for Nazi hierarchy in-fighting and decisions like putting bombs on the 262.

How is converting your entire production into two types anything but the most un-historical approach ever? If it's such a fantastically historical approach then even the in-fighting German command would have done that. Which they did, oh wait...[8|]
On the first page there's a complaint that this isn't a simulation any more, if people are THAT bothered about it then don't touch your production at all. Keep it as realistic as possible. But then that would ruin the usual refrain that only the other side should have to stick exactly to history...

What I'd have like to see (although I know it's not possible), is a random assortment of stats assigned to all these super-weapons. Until the prototypes are ready you've got no idea how good they actually are. Obviously the programming is far too difficult. And the ever constant whine of the FanBoy complaining that it would nerf their side would overload the internet and probably result in some sort of hate campaign as well.

[Nikademus]

nor was it possible.

This sounds like USAAF all over again. Convert to all FW190, no more 109's....then convert 190's to all Jets.

Yep...very realistic. [:D]

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

nor was it possible.

This sounds like USAAF all over again. Convert to all FW190, no more 109's....then convert 190's to all Jets.

Yep...very realistic. [:D]

But it MUST have been possible. The fan-boys say so...[:-]

[kaybayray]

Hey Lanconic,
I think I am seeing some of your point. Forgive me if I dont grasp it all. I only have 3 functioning brain cells so I am a bit slow on the uptake.

I agree with you on Galland. He was a proponent of reducing the Model Variation across the Luftwaffe and focus on those that had higher performance and combat results demonstrated. I think we could all debate till the cows come marchin in as to could this have been successfully accomplished by Germany givin all the tangled circumstances involved. I dont really want to go there.

I think I am getting some of what you are saying about how the Allies, once beyond a particular threshold were not really pressed to produce innovations. I am not really sure what to think about how that can or should or should not be applied to this game. I do think everybody has some very valid points. I think I do recognize that one of your points is that that aspect is hard coded into the game and has tied the hands of the Allies with respect to innovation should it become necessary due to the success of a player operating the Luftwaffe.

The Axis commander has the ability to manipulate R&D through production and thereby produce innovation and react to Allied successes. The Allied commander can not do this so I can see I think part of your thoughts here.

I want to address the topic of Gaming the Game a bit. I see everybody making points around this. I think that it is very difficult at best if not impossible to not Game the Game. We all are extremely aware of the particular impact of particular innovations on both sides. I think that innovations mostly focused on are those of aircraft design by Germany. We dont have this with the Allies because they were not pressed and there was no need for it. So I think it is easy for us to point out how a Luftwaffe commander is gaming the game by manipulating R&D and Production of innovative aircraft. I think was we may be overlooking is how the Allied commander may be gaming the game.

When I am playing this game it is quickly learned that I need a durable long range escort fighter and I need a huge increase in the numbers of my daylight strategic bombing forces. Well I know approximately when they are due to come online. So this effects the Mission Builds I run, my targeting, my use of assets. So how does the Allied commander game the game. You work the crap out of BC and nickle and dime with your daylight forces trying to hold on until the innovations come online.

So right about now some of you are thinkin... hey KayBay... you already got long range fighter escort aircraft. Yea I got a ton of them in the Med and my major need for them is in Europe where I have Spit Vb's by the boxcar but not much that can make it far across the channel. And right about now some of you are thinking... hey KayBay... you got others... you got P47C's. Yeahh I got 6 squadrons of them and I can make it half way across France before I gota tuck tail and head for the barn too. No Drop tanks. So do I throw them away on a couple missions to hit those UFAC's up in the Hinterlands??? Yeah if I want fly like 2 missions a month I can. So I sit on them and try to pound away on the rail yards and the few other assorted minor goodies in western Europe.

Now I am not saying I agree or disagree with shutting down all production other than the Uber Birds. But I do think I see what you are getting at about the Allies with respect to the potential for innovation. If I were playing a PBEM game I could very well need the ability to create and produce innovation. Say if I were to play the Allies agains oh.. you , or Sarge or Swift. Cause I know all of you would kick the tar outa me.

So I am not really sure what this all means. I am still digesting it all and thinking about it.

Later,
KayBay

[Derfel]

A decision to change production to only 5 types was made in July 1944, so by march 1945 there would only be the Ta152, Me262, Do335, Ju388 and Ar234 in production.
That was a reduction of planes types from about 42 to 5.
However that plan could not be carried out in life, as bombs were destroying the plants and the logistic system that assembled airframes with engines.

The ceased production of all bombers (except the Ar234) meant that plant should be switched over to the Me262.
Even the Me109 was to have ceased production in July 1945.

The "wastage" of air planes was hover huge, in February a total of 1300 planes, all types, were either destroyed or damaged in non combat situations killing 406 and wounding 227 personnel. Fighter production in the same month was 1759 fighters.

All of this meant that when the USAF launched a 1500 bomber stream screened by around 1000 escorts it would be opposed at max with 500 fighters of whom 300 - 400 actually made contact.

The game is gamey in that we, as players, know exactly what the performance of each plane is, so a way to make it more uncertain what a aircraft will do will make the gamey go out. You really do not want to put all your eggs in one basket, An example of this is the Me163 which was hoped for could engage in squadron or Gruppen sized units, however that was impossible as one ground controller was needed for each plane.

[Lanconic]

My point isnt about innovation. It is about NUMBERS.

If the Allies had needed to do so, the US could have easily doubled its effort.
I am not interested at all in hearing 'no they could not'

Anyone who has studied the actual production figures and costs of the war
realizes that the USA delibretly curbed its production in anticipation of the
post war world. The USA didnt have to do that. They could have kept ramping it up easily.

The exchange rate in planes with the TA152C is 7 to 1 that is SEVEN allied planes lost
for every TA152C.

The Allies could simply commit ten to one and overwhelm them.
The simulation doesnt allow this.
THAT is my point.

It would be VERY easy to simply give more replacements to the Allied player.
It would require very little in code change.

[harley]

Lanconic,

You forget the political implications of what you say.

The allies we deal with were on the major part democratic countries. There was little scope to expand the personnel losses beyond what they were without incurring the wrath of a tired populace.

The axis were essentially dictatorships. Dissent was crushed with jackboots. Throwing more troops into the fire was an easy response. Look at the volksturm and hitler youth units.


<edit> naughty commas

[bigmilt]

with the ta152 all the usaf guys would have to do is the same tactics as the me262 - they
have plenty of gas just wait for the landings to start jump in a gun them down on final approach.
Plus the electronic war was one of one upsmanship - all the electronics had a counter measure the
us and british scientists would have come up with a good counter measure.

[kaybayray]

Lanconic,
My definition of innovation is:

Initiating an adaptive change to overcome adverse situations

The adaptive change for example, could be to produce a larger quantity of any or all aircraft to deal with Air Superiority issues. I used the word Innovation for the particular purpose of not locking the interpretation into a dogmatic response of singularly New Aircraft Design as the adaptive response. The idea being to allow the inclusion of "any" type of change to overcome the problem with the purpose that it would induce the notion that potential changes would not be limited to just Research of New Designs.

In a nutshell, I was trying to legitimize your argument that a possible in game response by the Allied side would be to include increased production as well as new aircraft design.

Regards,
KayBay

[Golden Bear]

Maybe it is time to put in a "sudden death" for the Axis just as there is one for the Allies. For the same reason... to make certain that the Axis player doesn't sit still while waiting for something new and advantageous to happen for them. There is no way at all that any part of the German State, including people, could sit still while their units made no attempt to fight back at the bombings. OK, that is my opinion but based on more than a little study of the Nazi state.

Also, it is clear that having so many Tas so early in the "war" is nerfing the game. So, if that is desirable to a player, there is a version of the game that allows that now. Can't blame the controllers of the code for trying to close such an obvious loophole.

For Allied player having hindsight on where the big factories were, I knew that already from reading The Mighty Eighth long before the game came out. The Allies knew what was producing what and where for a long while into the war, until dispersal.

Don't disagree that the Allies should ramp up response if the LW player is winning but also think that the LW player should suffer more pressures to respond.

Anyway it is the job of the "Team" to work on play balance and block obvious play advantages vs. their perception of the battle.

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: harley

Lanconic,

You forget the political implications of what you say.

The allies we deal with were on the major part democratic countries. There was little scope to expand the personnel losses beyond what they were without incurring the wrath of a tired populace.

The axis were essentially dictatorships. Dissent was crushed with jackboots. Throwing more troops into the fire was an easy response. Look at the volksturm and hitler youth units.


<edit> naughty commas

Well yes I am. There is no practical way a Luftwaffe run by Goering would react
usefully to events. Politics is war.

However ignoring the politics doesnt bother me any more than using critical industries
bothers me as the Allied player.

Because target selection is ALSO political.

My point is that the Designer response to good game play by the German
is to attempt to hamper the German, rather than the obvious enhance the allied.

Eisenhower admitted post war that manpower was never really an issue
citing 200+ divisions as a possible mobilization. The actual manpower shortages suffered
by the USA in Europe were caused by allotment decisions, not lack of bodies.

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Maybe it is time to put in a "sudden death" for the Axis just as there is one for the Allies. For the same reason... to make certain that the Axis player doesn't sit still while waiting for something new and advantageous to happen for them. There is no way at all that any part of the German State, including people, could sit still while their units made no attempt to fight back at the bombings. OK, that is my opinion but based on more than a little study of the Nazi state.

Also, it is clear that having so many Tas so early in the "war" is nerfing the game. So, if that is desirable to a player, there is a version of the game that allows that now. Can't blame the controllers of the code for trying to close such an obvious loophole.

For Allied player having hindsight on where the big factories were, I knew that already from reading The Mighty Eighth long before the game came out. The Allies knew what was producing what and where for a long while into the war, until dispersal.

Don't disagree that the Allies should ramp up response if the LW player is winning but also think that the LW player should suffer more pressures to respond.

Anyway it is the job of the "Team" to work on play balance and block obvious play advantages vs. their perception of the battle.

What exactly could they do? An example would be Hamburg. How could the Germans
do anything to stop what happened?
By all means, enlighten us.

[harley]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

Well yes I am. There is no practical way a Luftwaffe run by Goering would react
usefully to events. Politics is war.

Yet you ignore the fact that there is no way the german political leadership would allow the luftwaffe to stand down for 2 months while the allies reigned free overhead. there is a major difference between not being able to respond (which happened) and choosing not to respond (which may have happened at a tactical level, but never at a political one).

You also seem to have forgotten that the Industry leaders would also never allow that to happen. That you can do it in-game is ahistoric, maybe I should block Messerschmit factories from being changed to anything but messerschmit types. Willy was never going to allow his financial ambitions be dictated to. It wasn't a socialist state, it was a nazi/fascist state.

We can argue this back and forth for weeks. You seem to be in a majority of one here, though Kaybayray is giving you a sympatheic ear. My response to anyone gaming the system is always going to be to see if there is a way I can prevent it that doesn't screw the game, with a view on historical accuracy.

There are 2 alternate responses to making prod harder that could work. One is Ron's idea to make the equipment required not available til a certain date, which is challenging for me, and could cause problems. The other is to require all intermediate types to be available before researching something. That means you'd need all the FW190's done before trying the TAs. This would be fairly easy to implement, and be completely reasonable - each iteration of each aircraft is a learning platform for what comes next. Parallel development happens, yes, but the learning still needs to take place in the real world.

[Hard Sarge]

my point is, it is not good game play, it is gamy game play

and yes, you should have a good KD rate, the better Allied planes are not around yet

and the changes made, were not made to combat what a player could explot, it was made to correct what the AI was doing wrong, which the players also could do

hmmmm, 7-1 in losses, from what I remember, one of Swifts Allied wins, he had 1-5 for losses as the Allied, so, don't see where you are really doing so well

plus, as I said, I think your idea of good game play, would be exploted by a good player in PBEM, I already see the weak point, I am sure others have also

[Hard Sarge]

ahhh, forgot something, he don't know the insides of the plane, it is not as good as he thinks

when it the late Stangs come in, it will be outclassed

[Golden Bear]

[Not worthy of response.]