ETO - before the scenario

[Uxbridge]

Have updated list of changes in the first post! [:)]

[Uxbridge]

29. Changed Edinburgh to normal city and added Scapa Flow. It is now possible to access the Norwegian Sea from Scapa Flow.

[Uxbridge]

27b.  A prerequisite for 27a (a German sea landing near Oslo), is that the city of Aarhus is owned by Germany. This is to simulate the fear of German air power that would keep the Western Allies from intervening in the Skagerack. No German unit actually have to be in Aarhus; it will suffice that the hex is owned by Germany. Historically, Denmark and Norwegen was attacked in a different way. I have included this variant, however, to potrait the fact that Germany probably wouldn’t have had the power to protect a German-Norwegian supply line without the possesion of Denmark.

[Uxbridge]

30. Made Batumi and Samsun into ports. It is now possible for the Russians to fully supply or reinforce Sevastopol by sea, even if the Axis has cut its land communication. They may even continue basing naval units if Sevastopol is lost. Hopefully, this change may lead to some action in the Black Sea.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge


23. Due to inability to create a workable solution for the North African supply problems, an Italian DAK contingent will now replace the German one. No German units are allowed in North Africa, save air units.

An italian Afrika corps? When Rommel arrived in N. Africa, he did take commmand of the italian and german forces. Hard to imagine an italian Afrika corps. Hard to imagine that no german armored divisions will ever be there and they they are replaced by an italian corps. And the armor of the germans are of better quality than the italians.

[Uxbridge]

No, no, I wasn't clear enough on this point. The Italian DAK is the German one, only it will look Italian and be played by the Italian player in the Italian player turn. It will lack some of the fighting qualities inherent in the German units fighting on mainland Europe. There's no way to simulate the supply problems in NA, therefore we're going for this compromise.
 
The good thing about this is that the odd problems with Italian units not able to multi-hex attack or move together with Germans is gone.

[Mike Parker]

Uxbridge,
 
Are you going to have the event put a German Armour in Europe or an Italian Armour in N Africa depending upon the event choice, or is it going to always create an Italian DAK?

[Uxbridge]

I don't know how to do events, really. So the DAK is present from the start and locked until the original unit was beginning to get transfered to NA. When this happens the Italians (Axis) will have 3 really strong units among their more basic ones.

[Uxbridge]

ORIGINAL: balto

I think #7 and #8 would be great if the loss of those areas really, really, really hurt the UK and Germany and this would be very realistic. Maybe throw in a devastating reduction if Gibraltar is lost.

Sorry for not answering this post before. Forgot! [:(]

Germany start with 168 PP in resources and cities. Of these 45 resources (27 %) is located abroad (Scandinavia - 14; Romania - 22; Balkan [Yugoslavia] - 5; Finland - 4).

UK start with 121 PP in resources and cities. Of these 27 resources (21 %) is located abroad (Haifa - 4; Kirkuk [Iraq] - 8; Kuwait] - 7; Az Zubani [Iraq] - 2; Yadavaran [Iran] - 5).

I might redress the British balance between different places slightly, keeping the total. In reality the sources of crude oil and the refineris wasn't located exactly as this, but i used already present locations.

[coxville]

Can I say how much I am looking forward to this being available. partly because it sounds great anyway but mainly because I used to play Advanced Tactics and what made that so special was that each Mod that came out inspired others to make their own. The final Mods were so far ahead of the original scenarios that the latter felt quite shallow when you went back to play them. Don't get me wrong people will always say well I want that change but not the other one. great, that is what motivates them to find out how to Mod and then the variety of scenarios available grows. Any idea when us mere mortals will get a chance to see it?

Chris

[Michael the Pole]

ORIGINAL: coxville

Can I say how much I am looking forward to this being available. partly because it sounds great anyway but mainly because I used to play Advanced Tactics and what made that so special was that each Mod that came out inspired others to make their own. The final Mods were so far ahead of the original scenarios that the latter felt quite shallow when you went back to play them. Don't get me wrong people will always say well I want that change but not the other one. great, that is what motivates them to find out how to Mod and then the variety of scenarios available grows. Any idea when us mere mortals will get a chance to see it?

Chris

AMEN![8D]

[Hairog]

I just read a good "what if" book and one of the ways the author suggested that Hitler could have won the war was to send more troops to N.Africa, really take out the Brits and then go after the Soviets through both the eastern front as well as from Turkey eliminating 70% of the Russian oil fields.

It sounds like this option is off the table if German troops, beyond what was historically sent to aid Italy, are not available. Please look into the possiblity of adding more Italian/German Africa troops so that you do not preclude this possible way to victory for the Axis. To me this is one of the more intriguing "what ifs" in WWII.

[Uxbridge]

There was just one way they could have acomplished this and that was by removing the major part of the Italian army from NA. With the Italians replaced by Germans the strength of the Axis in NA would have been much greater. But Mussolini wouldn't have had that. And then there was the supply problem. It was all but impossible to advance further than Cyrenaica with supply lines stretching from Tripoli, so it probably wouldn't have been done anyway.

You can try it, but it have to be with Italians. [;)]

[Hairog]

I beg to differ. I think that with the full might and force of the German war machine focused on the Mediterranean and Malta, the Brits would have been overwhelmed pretty easily. This would have then set it up so that 70% of Russia's oil would have been destroyed of captured in the first couple of weeks of a delayed Barbarossa with Germany attacking from two fronts.

But it's your mod not mine and except for this point it looks very good. Keep up the great work.

The afore mentioned book by the way is "How Hitler Could Have Won WWII" by Bevin Alexander. A good read for all wargamers.

[Flaviusx]

Logistical and political considerations precluded introducing larger numbers of German troops into NA, as Uxbridge says. They couldn't even properly supply what they sent there. He's doing what he can given the limitations of the game code to simulate that.
 
The only way around this, so far as I can tell, would be to either invade Turkey or bring it into the Axis and establish overland communications with the Middle East. Libya was just not a good base for a major Axis offensive.
 
If the Axis player wants a knockout blow against the British in the Med, he needs to look at Turkey and Spain, not Libya. That's a tough strategic choice and commitment for them to make given their concerns in the East, and rightly so.

[Uxbridge]

Yes, as Flaviusx acknowledge, taking Egypt was more or less beyond the abilities of the Axis. This has no representation within the game system, why some manual restrictions is called upon. Thus the prohibition for German units in NA.
 
The mention of Turkey had me thinking. This country is often overlooked in most WWII games; the reason for that, obviously, is that it never was involved in the actual war, save some late face saving gestures.
 
Turkey is nor without strategic consideration, however. The British tried hard to get her into a UK-Greece-Yugoslavian leage after the Italian attack on Greece in 1940-41. She was also a tempting target for German representation, promising an alternative way of attacking Caucasus. The Turks themselves faced a three dimensional dillemma: side with the Western Allies, hoping for a friendly post-war partner; side with Germany and help destroy USSR and maybe recieve some concessions in areas formerly Ottoman where Hitler had no aspirations; or side with the USSR, the country they for geographical and historical reasons feared most, in some vague hope to be left alone after a Soviet victory. It all depended on which side would win, a question which answer fluctuated wildly as the years went on.
 
To reflect that Turkey very well  might have been involved in the war, I will add her to the list of countries that may be influenced by coup d'etats. These rules, as they stand now, look as follows:
 
1. Only Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Iran and Iraq may ever be subjected for a coup d'etat attempt. This, on the other hand may happen as many times as possible up to the actual time when the country concerned joins an alliance. The results of these machinations are not necessarily to be seen as government overthrows, but rapid fluctuations in government sentiment.

2. Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Spain may never be subjeted to diplomatic activity. They may only be delared war on.

3. Once USA joins the war, all diplomatic activity must cease, the only exception being declarations of war and activities concerning the countries given in case 1., that may be subjected to diplomacy up to the end of the game.

 
Suggestions within these general guidelines?

[Flaviusx]

My sense is that Turkey would've avoided commitment to any side until one side was clearly winning the war and their entry too late to affect the issue one way or the other. That's more or less what they did in real life. I don't find the idea of Turkey throwing its lot with the Axis in 1940-1 very plausible, and putting that possibility into the game via coups is dubious. I'd tie it in to Axis vp level, and make the requirements sky high. (Something along the lines of Germany pushing as far east as the Arkangel-Astrakhan line.)
 
Turkey clung to its neutrality at least as hard as the Spanish did, harder in fact. (No Turkish equivalent to the Blue Division.) A system that puts Spain in the permanent neutral column and Turkey as a potential ally seems odd to me.
 
 

[Hairog]

"To reflect that Turkey very well might have been involved in the war, I will add her to the list of countries that may be influenced by coup d'etats. These rules, as they stand now, look as follows:"

Excellent idea. My suggestion that more German troops be allowed to fight in NA is predicated on the idea that Hitler is talked out of attacking Russia in 1941 and instead turns his sights on making the Mediterranean an Axis lake and moving through the Balkans taking Turkey and the oil in Saudi etc and setting themselves up for a two front war against Stalin in 1942. One front from the east focused on Moscow and the second through Turkey focused on the Russia's vulnerable and valuable oil fields.

The afore mentioned author and I agree...I think it would be unstoppable and Germany would have won WWII.

This can not happen is the Suez Canal is still in British hands. So my contention is that if Germany really wanted to send and supply 3 or 4 divisions to Libya they could have done it and done it pretty easily if the German High Command was focused on it. Malta was seen as the major problem with supply to NA. I really do believe that with all the forces that the Axis had at it's disposal in 1941, they could have suppressed the British navy with air power, the Italian fleet could have pounded the island back into the stone age and Axis forces could have walked from landing barge to victory. With the Luffies not focused on Barbarossa and only concerned with making the Med an Axis lake it would have happened. The Italian navy was no push over.

Anyway I would like to game it out to see and once and for all if we can take this idea off the table. I was hoping that maybe this game was the answer to finding out. Maybe not. Maybe I'll have to wait for the World in Flames or some yet to be created simulation masterpiece.

I love realistic "what if" scenarios and that's why I play historical simulations. So If it is possible I would like to have all realistic options available. I believe that putting and supplying 1 or 2 more German divisions in NA is realistic and was a very viable option. You may not think so and maybe we'll have to wait for another game with more realistic supply rules that makes it possible to find out. I just don't like to be limited by a kind of "house rule" solution if at all possible.

Again your project sounds fantastic and I can't wait to try it out.

[Uxbridge]

I'll probably keep the technical possibility to try to influence Turkey, then players can decide what the house rule should be.

[Flaviusx]

The Axis is probably better off spending those diplomatic points on Iraq and Persia and just invading Turkey if they are pursuing a Med strat. They have a better chance of flipping those countries. Turkey costs a ton of points to influence.
 
It's a pity the game doesn't distinguish between metropolitan Vichy France and its overseas posessions, I could see Syria going Axis in this situation as well.
 
An Axis invasion of Turkey could trigger a Soviet response, however. This might even be in the existing game events.