Port Moresby (To take or ignore)

[RUPD3658]

Many players are obsessed with taking Port Moresby as the Japs. Some say that they want to succeed where the Japs failed, other say that it allows for raiding of Austrailia, as still others say that they have wanted to do it since they couldn't do it in "Flat Top".

Think about this though. In any of the long campaigns you can probably take PM if you put all (and I do mean all) of you resourses into it. Whether you go overland or right in you will take very high losses, usually in excess of what the Allies lose. But then the real problem begins. There is an old Russian saying "Be careful what you wish for...you may get it". Now that you have PM you have to hold it. The Allies won't try a landing for a long time but every LBM from Brisbane to Cooktown is going to come calling on a daily basis. You also have to supply the base through the gauntlett of Allied air power so the attrition losses will continue. The garrison and the CAP needed to keep the base on the map take alot of supplies. You will not be able to raid Austraila due to the fighter cover and range and forget about an Austrailian invasion (You won't have enough Marus after the losses in taking PM and the subsequent amount needed for the supply runs) So in the end you have a base that takes all of your resourses to take and continues to tap them to exist making it hard to do much else. (Sounds like being married!)

Before you send nasty replies saying "Then why play as the Japs?" I am going to offer a better use of resourses. Go after Espirito Santo and Noumeua instead. A feint towards PM by taking Gili Gili and Buna (Both undefended) should draw most of the allied resourses to PM. Let them sit there with nothing to do (Much like the Jap land units did in Manchuria). By taking the southern islands you can take 2-5 bases (Luganville, Efate Port Villa, Noumea and the two others Fiji) Your air power can be built to the point that any ship going in or out of Noumea will get pounded. Also as you have about 6 months before the allies build up you have plenty of time to take these bases and put a strangle hold on Noumea, even if you don't take it. Mining Noumea and the approach hexes (under LR CAP of course) can also give the Allies fits. Mining your own bases should make any Allied attempts to retake these bases costly.

Remeber, the Allies lose on Jan 2, 1943 if you have a size 5+ airbase with 2x supplies at any of these locations so they have to try to retake them quickly. You should be able to inflict sufficiant casualties that even if they take them they will not be able to get to Rabaul by the end of '43 leaving the Japs with a standard win due to points from base possession. Also by the time they start up the slot your bases there should be built up enough to cause even more losses. You aren't out to take the whole Pacific (that will be the goal in War in the Pacific, the Struggle against Japan) only to take and hold enough to win. You have the initiative and the Allies have to catch up.

I know this idea will ruffle some feathers but just remeber Sun Szu who said "Ignore the enemy's strengths and strike where he is weak". And who are we to argue with a man who developed the recipie for such tasty chicken! Or is that General Tso?

[Fred98]

Your posts are very good.

These are the type of posts that forums were made for.

Your posts are so good that I have nothing to add and nothing to argue over.

But by reading your posts I am a better player.

Unfortunately my opponents will read them too!

[Spooky]

Great post

I have already added it to the UV FAQ/Strategy guide ... and I am really looking for some more high quality tips like this one !

Spooky

[Luskan]

Just have a few questions:
First, has anyone ever taken Noumea in a PBEM early on (I thought about it, knowing that my opponent was pounding the C%^& out of Lae from PM with every bomber on earth, but decided not to risk it. Just wondering if anyone has pulled it off against a human.

Second, if you take Noumea, and then the allies somehow manage to retake it (they don't get any more ships, but aircraft come in at brisbane) do all the ships that should have arrived arrive in one big fat (and probably very fatal for the jap player) rush because they've been waiting so long, or do they just not get sent from Pearl?


Third, I don't entirely agree with your post RUPD3658 (as good as it is). Allied bomber power is going to get you no matter what you do. But if to take P.M., then you bases are land-secure, and it is a fair distance to Cooktown over the water. I would prefer allied bombers hitting me in PNG from Australia because the range will be long enough for me to fend them off for a while.

If you don't take PM, the allied player can turn it into an UBER base that will wipe Lae, Gasmata, Finschafen and Rabual off the map. Besides, once you have P.M., you only need to keep enough troops there to force the allied player to launch a big invasion (you can march the rest to Buna and then home for refit etc.) and there are no australian bases within fighter cover (even p-38) range of P.M., so carriers must support any allied invasion. Yet there are a dozen useful jap bases on PNG, and nearby that can support P.M. in the event of an enemy bomber attack (the allies can't waste ALL the bases ALL of the time) and those same PNG bases can support betty's that have enough range to hit an invasion TF coming across the sea to P.M.

My cargo ship commanders are safer running from GG to P.M under the extreme edge of allied bomber range, than they are running anywhere in the Lae, Finschafen, Madang, Gasmata area - hell, they even get hit at Kavieng and Rabaul some times.


I'm not telling you that you are wrong - I'm just telling you that I disagree

[pasternakski]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RUPD3658
Many players are obsessed with taking Port Moresby as the Japs. [QUOTE]

This player thinks that taking Port Moresby is a necessity. Control of New Guinea eases the Japanese player's task in the later phases of the campaign game (sc17 or sc19) when the burden of attack is on the Allies.

[QUOTE]Think about this though. In any of the long campaigns you can probably take PM if you put all (and I do mean all) of you resourses into it. Whether you go overland or right in you will take very high losses, usually in excess of what the Allies lose.

[NZTrooper]

**cough cough ***

just who was that PBEM player you were talking about luskan .. and what makes you think all!! of his bombers are at PM :p

[panda124c]

PM can be isolated by using Gili Gili to cut the supply line from Australia, this will eliminate PM as a base that the Allies can use to launch bomber/fighters against Rabaul. Thus allowing the use of LBA against Laguna with no distractions from PM. Gili Gili also controls the entrance to the Coral Sea, so any invasion fleet will either have to reduce it or run the gaunlant of LBA.

[mogami]

Greetings. This is the most important question the Japanese player must ask before making the first turn in scenario 17.
"PM or no PM"

Personally I feel the Japanese admit defeat the moment they give up on PM with out a battle....why?

first it concedes New Gueina. The Japanese will lose all their bases there in time if they fail to capture Port Moresby.

second it places their supply lines in ranage of allied bombers that will only get better and grow in numbers. While it is true the allies will bomb Port Moresby they will not bomb the Rabual-Solomons supply lines and Lunga is the real point to the campaign. The problem is with Port Moresby in Allied hands the Solomon campaign will be subject to flank and rear attacks.

So the Japanese are pretty much forced into fighting for PM till after August. If succesfull they can hopefully also win the Solomons. If not it was all a mute point to begin with. Just my opinion. I have posted a fuller discription of this stratagy months ago.

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by RUPD3658

I know this idea will ruffle some feathers but just remeber Sun Szu who said "Ignore the enemy's strengths and strike where he is weak". And who are we to argue with a man who developed the recipie for such tasty chicken! Or is that General Tso?

If feathers are ruffled, they shouldn't be. A key element of later US offensives was to use codebreaking to hit the Japanese at land locations where they were weak as opposed to where they were strong. Hitting em where they aint is a classic strategy.

The numero uno key difference between the historical PM campaign and just about any and all player campaigns (and not just UV either) is that the first thing an Allied player does is stuff the base with as much air and land power as he has available.

The difference between this "uber" PM base and the real PM can become so extreme one begins to ask themselves why this wasn't done in real life, ASAP?

The answer, besides obviously "Hindsight", made itself more and more felt to me as i proceeded to do much the same thing in my current campaign.

The little trickle thought being......what if a canny IJN player decided to hit Austrailia instead of my uber PM base?

Sounds a bit far-fetched but think about it. In the first 6 months of the campaign few reinforcements arrive via Brisbane, so with up to 80% of your airforce guarding PM......what's left to defend that rather large continent?

The situation is less acute in terms of land power thanks to the historcial/political limitation that keeps Aussie home defence brigades where they belong but even here, a sassy IJN player could take some advantage as again, most Allied players will send the several available SWPAC brigades and the 7th Aussie Division to New Gineau ala a "front lines" mentality.

The Pacific war though, was not a war of static land lines though, but a war of mobility.

Not to say it wouldnt present it's own challenges or be very very difficult, but still, it made me wonder......it would be so easy to hit most of the big Aussie cities with even modest carrier air forces while up to four or five FG's and a half dozen or more bomber groups are sitting up at PM waiting for the IJN player to play his predictive role.

At the very least a sassy IJN player could score some points.....especially at shipping choke points such as Brisbane.

Perhaps there was a valid reason why PM wasn't stuffed with every available air group at the expense of other cities/bases after all.....

Thoughts like this of course are what make wargames like UV so awesome......being able to explore the myriad of alternate strategies.

I've also found that there are some inherent disadvantages to having so much airpower concentrated at PM as well, mainly logistical headaches as any well planned bombing/interdiction campaign by the Japanese coupled with very active squadrons at PM quickly begins to eat up the supplies there making the base vulnerable to being cut off by a combination of sea and air power.

The problem became so accute i had to risk a MCS masacre by sending in most of my available transports on a supply run while IJN carriers were lurking north of Lae.

I think the only thing that saved me was that for some reason, my garisoning of Gili Gili seems to have messed up the AI's planning routines so that massive 100+ plane raids from Rabaul are hitting the sole brigade there vs the big juicy target that is PM.

One other potential disadvantage and one i dont see on either side of the fence is the increased vulnerability of staging so many planes from one base which you would think would make them more vulnerable to destruction/damage from the air vs a more dispersed strategy. A problem that has existed since the days of GGPW and even before in 8-bit days. air to ground routines vis a vis airfields may need looking at for WitP. Right now even massive raids are lucky to damage a half dozen planes if their lucky. Airfield and Airfield service damage are fleeting unless the player can keep up daily pressure.

[Long Lance]

PM simply is the key to success for the IJN. Just take it. I'm quite sure that it's easier to conquer PM for the Japanese than to defend it for the Allies, except of if you suffer a deadly blow in a carrier battle (even vs. a human player).

As soon as you own PM, you are free to attack were you want.
If you won a major carrier battle, there's no chance for the allied to defend Australia, because most of the LCU were destroyed in PM. If you suffered moderate losses, take the salomons and switch over to a defensive tactic.

Of course except of if you plan an offensice against Australia, PM is worthless if you own it. It's valuable only as long as owned by the Allied player, because it will in the long run make Rabaul useless as the backbone of your base network. When playing as Japanese, taking PM or not means losing or winning the game.

I never tried the direct attack on Luganville, Efate, etc. because of the long distances to be travelled (long time for supply runs, long return for damaged ships etc.) and the fear, that if this operation won't succeed, the chance to take PM and to secure Rabaul is lost, and so your front line can't be stabilized.

But it sounds very challenging, I'll take a try. Who needs sleep those days:o ?

[SwampYankee68]

Originally posted by Mogami
Greetings. This is the most important question the Japanese player must ask before making the first turn in scenario 17.
"PM or no PM"

Personally I feel the Japanese admit defeat the moment they give up on PM with out a battle....why?

first it concedes New Gueina. The Japanese will lose all their bases there in time if they fail to capture Port Moresby.

second it places their supply lines in ranage of allied bombers that will only get better and grow in numbers. While it is true the allies will bomb Port Moresby they will not bomb the Rabual-Solomons supply lines and Lunga is the real point to the campaign. The problem is with Port Moresby in Allied hands the Solomon campaign will be subject to flank and rear attacks.

So the Japanese are pretty much forced into fighting for PM till after August. If succesfull they can hopefully also win the Solomons. If not it was all a mute point to begin with. Just my opinion. I have posted a fuller discription of this stratagy months ago.

Playing scenario 17, what is the proper time frame for going after PM, or GG for that matter? In my PBEM game, In late July of the first year I have managed to reinforce Lunga and build up it's port and airfield. Now that I have fighters, Torpedo Dive Bombers, and troops there in addition to having all approaches to it mined, I feel it is somewhat secure from invasion for awhile. Now I have to decide what my next move should be.... At what point do he Americans have the strength to make taking PM back impossible?

[mogami]

Greetings. The major problem with trying to build Lunga AND capture PM is the troops garrisioning Lunga will be needed in the assualt on PM. If you allow the Allies to move the 3 Bde of the 7th Aus Div to PM you then need both the 38th and 2nd IJA divisions to achive the needed combat odds. Supply is also a major concern. You need 100k plus fuel and supply at Rabaul to support all the ship movement and air combat.
I have found mid July to be the earlist period I am able to mount sustained operations against PM. Hopefully by then you will have accounted for Lexington and Yorktown and still have 4-6 CV on hand to cover the transports and surface forces acting against PM. The CV also provide the added fighter escort for the early LBA raids against PM's airfield. Try to have a replenishment TF between Shortland and PM to refuel bombardment TF's operating against PM. (refuel the day before they begin the run in)
Use your 3k transports to move troops and supply from Truk to Rabaul. Use fast transport TF's (DD and CL not APD) to capture Gili Make troop carring TF based on speed and load (don't mix the 2k and 1k ships) Don't include HQ or other non combat formations in first waves. Station fighters at Lae to fly LRCAP over transports unloading at PM.

Of course the whole plan of operations depends on Tokyo releasing the needed CV/BB by mid July. However as long as operations are completed before 1 Sept the campaign is proceeding well.

Like PM the battle for Lunga and points east of there depends on the outcome of the CV battles and early surface engagements.

Use one or two of the semi independant Bdes to hold PM after capture (freeing the 2 infantry div for use in Solomons. 2 fighter groups and 2 bomber groups should keep PM secure from anything but a full blown attempt to recapture. (But now the allied player will also have to contend with Japanese operations in the Solomons directed at bases that will require his LCU to defend. Santa Cruz is a good target (at least for a feint) while you build a new base on Santa Cristabol to keep enemy aircarft (excepting heavy bombers) out of range.

[pasternakski]

And I find that after I take the hated Port Moresby, Luganville becomes a nasty little hellhole. The Allies are building up pretty quickly by now, and Lunga is taking some heat. Also, my supply lines are getting longer and more vulnerable.

In short, by early 1943, I stop puffing out my Bushido chest and start feeling the pangs of impending doom. If I have secured Lunga and all of New Guinea, sunk most of the six early US carriers, and kept a decent core of the IJN afloat (especially carriers with fairly intact air groups), I've done about all I can do. The worm is about to turn.

Of course, I've had the rare game (both PBEM and against the AI) where everything has broken exactly right and I find myself firmly ashore in northern Australia and in possession of Luganville, but it doesn't happen often (and I have yet to meet with this kind of success against a fairly good, let alone excellent, Allied PBEM player).

Yep, by March '43, I fully expect that I'm gonna start getting my a** handed to me on a plate. Victory on points, here we come - and usually by the slimmest of margins.

Great game.

[SwampYankee68]

Thank you Pasternakski and Mogami for your valuable advice. Since the initial carrier engagement went bad for me (lost two, sunk none), and I have built up Lunga at the cost of PM and GG, I wonder if it is too late for my IJN. I had been thinking of heavilly reinforcing Lae and hunkering down, trying to sqieak by on points....

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by Swamp_Yankee
Thank you Pasternakski and Mogami for your valuable advice. Since the initial carrier engagement went bad for me (lost two, sunk none), and I have built up Lunga at the cost of PM and GG, I wonder if it is too late for my IJN. I had been thinking of heavilly reinforcing Lae and hunkering down, trying to sqieak by on points....

Be bold, Yamamoto. Yes, the gods of war seem to have taken a dislike to you in the early going, but think of the great heights to which you can bring the Yamato people. Perhaps that is the test the gods present to you. Banzai!

Okay, so you're down two carriers. You still have the Midway carriers and their supporting cast of CVLs. Their pilots and equipment are still the best in the world (okay, okay all you F4F and SBD fans, I'm a cheerleader here, all right?). At this early stage, you are ascendant in night surface combat. You will never again have the opportunity to seize the initiative and take the battle to the hated enemy.

Death to you, Nimitz-san!

Secure Gili-Gili and develop it as a bulwark against any Allied attempt to "turn the New Guinea corner." Keep Rabaul freshly stocked with Bettys, Nellies, and Zekies primed to fly anti-shipping missions! Blast Port Moresby into oblivion with your terrible, highly efficient bombardment TFs! Turn Lae into the forward base that makes Port Moresby untenable! If presented with the opportunity, mass all your forces (two divisions, three brigades, and support troops) and CONQUER!

Above all, seek out and destroy the Allied carrier threat! (Why am I, a seasoned editor and former English teacher, using all these silly exclamation points?) You must force a decisive carrier battle NOW if you hope to win.

Try to make it on your own terms (within Betty range of Rabaul would be nice), but fight this battle as soon as possible.

The Emperor awaits news of your triumph. What awaits you if you fail is unmentionable (the Japanese "Hara-Kiri" translates roughly into English in this context as "new game").

No "hunkering down" for me! My elite assault troops are ready!

[SwampYankee68]

Hai!

Love the photo (san?)

Anyway, Apparently I erred. I am playing "Yamamoto's Prophecy". There will be no midway carriers steaming to my rescue. But I have 2 strong ones and a weak one left, and together I have banded them to hunt. The rest of your advice sounds, well, sound, so...

For the Emporer's Glory! Banzai!

(thanks again...Proof once again that wargamers are the best community)

[RUPD3658]

I am amazed that in less than 2 weeks over 500 fellow gamers read this post and several commented on it. Many good replies including several reasons for and against my original plan were posted. This is what forums are for. There is no one way to play UV and doing the unexpected can be your best weapon against a human player. The computer, while smarter than most AIs, still has the IQ of toast and will respond predicably to most actions. What I would really like to see is an AI with multiple personalities. One could be recklessly agressive while an other is ultra conservative with several in between. I am not computer savy but I am sure it could be done by changing the point value for the various computer decisions.

Back to the original topic about taking PM. I played scenario 17 as the Japs and decided to go after PM. I took it with heavy losses but broke the back of the USA. The computer lost most of its air power at PM (Over 200 aircraft) along with alot of ground units and several naval assets. By the end of 42 when the game locked up (Again) due to an instant Jap victory I controlled all of the map except New Calidonia and Brisbane. I could have taken Brisbane in another week then would have been done. Winning 21k to 4k I could just run out the clock if I had to. I guess taking PM does work. But this was against the computer. I don't know against an oppanant that can think.

As to making my original plan work better, I have deveopled a few tricks. Feel free to try these on people that don't read these posts:

1. Put the starting 5-6 Jap SS into a sub transport TF and use these to take either Luganville or Efate. Both of these are guarded by ENG units that have 0 assualt strength. In both cases I captured fuel and supplies and desroyed several planes on the ground. You can fly in a base force using your patrol aircraft and in no time you can be harrassing sea lanes. At the least it could take pressure off your assualt at PM since the US must divert forces to take them back. This could also get you an instant victory if is after 1/2/43 and the US was nice enough to expand the base for you. Regardless it is bound to give your enemy fits! The US did this at Tarawa in 43 so it is a vaiable strategy rather than "Playing the rules, not the game"

2. Take Gili Gili on turn 1 using 2 DDs in a fast transport TF. Supply them once then leave them there and watch the US player come to get them. His CVs will go for GG so you can cause a CV battle. Next take every ML you have and start making regular runs from Truk to GG making the base one big minefield. I did this and the computer took the bait. I forced the US CVs into a battle in which both were sunk in exchange for 1 sunk one out of action but the fun began when 9 transports were sunk by mines and 10 more by the Bettys from Rabaul. He took the base, which had an assault strength of 1 but paid heavily for it. I had no intention of holding it as I was going East instead so it made for a nice ambush.

Please keep your ideas and opinions coming. I am glad that those who disagreed with me did so respectfully rather than just branding me a heratic or a loon. Thanks to all of you who responded as I was able to tell my wife that I had hundreds of people that wanted to hear or were challenging my theories and I therefore HAD to spend hours playing UV to develop them!:p

[Raverdave]

Has anybody thought of how it looks from the other side? Try SCEN#15. As the Allied player you have little choice but to try and take PM. And I say try because in the four SCEN#15 PBEM that I am playing I am in deep trouble in two of them, doing ok in one, and have failed in the other.:rolleyes:

[SwampYankee68]

What are the groups thoughts about landing troops at Buna nd marching then to an attack on PM?

BTW, Pasternakski, after our last discussion, my opponent attempted a landing on Lunga. In the first day I decimated his aircover, the second I sank Wasp and Saratoga, and for the next few days I pounded his landing ships from the air with impunity. Today. I killed or captured ALL OF his (at least) landing force of 15,000 troops. None left.

My carriers S and Z came through totally unscathed.

I'm now looking at my options for a landing. I have the whole 2nd Division and partrs of the Yazawa Bgde to use, unless I wait a month for another division to show. (It is late Aug, year one)

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by Swamp_Yankee
What are the groups thoughts about landing troops at Buna nd marching then to an attack on PM?

BTW, Pasternakski, after our last discussion, my opponent attempted a landing on Lunga. In the first day I decimated his aircover, the second I sank Wasp and Saratoga, and for the next few days I pounded his landing ships from the air with impunity. Today. I killed or captured ALL OF his (at least) landing force of 15,000 troops. None left.

My carriers S and Z came through totally unscathed.

I'm now looking at my options for a landing. I have the whole 2nd Division and partrs of the Yazawa Bgde to use, unless I wait a month for another division to show. (It is late Aug, year one)

Nice job, pal. Now that you've restored order, you're ready to wreak a little havoc, eh?

Ain't it great?